Nazi Hunting: From John Demjanjuk to Richard Spencer

This program’s original recording transcript is below. This transcription was created automatically during a live program so may contain inaccurate transcriptions of some words.

Ari Goldstein: I'm Ari Goldstein Senior Public programs producer at the Museum of Jewish heritage, a living memorial to the Holocaust and it's a pleasure to welcome you to today's very timely program on Nazi.

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Ari Goldstein: past and present before we introduce our guests today i'll turn things over to our partners at the abl for some words of welcome.

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Suzie Davidowitz: Thank you very good afternoon, my name is susie davidowitz and I am pleased to serve as a board member of adl New York New Jersey.

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Suzie Davidowitz: I am personally deeply committed to the concept of never again and have devoted my volunteer energy to doing all that I can to ensure this is the case.

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Suzie Davidowitz: Bringing Nazis and neo Nazis to justice is an incredibly important way to live that credo, which is why i'm so pleased to welcome all of you, on behalf of the anti defamation league adl to today's special program on Nazi hunting.

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Suzie Davidowitz: This is an issue that is woven into the DNA of adl, beginning with the organization's education of Americans in the 1930s.

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Suzie Davidowitz: about the dangerous at home grown Nazi movements in America pose to democracy, especially the anti Semitic German American fund.

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Suzie Davidowitz: During World War Two adl launched a massive research operation undercover to find Nazi supporters in hate groups in the US, making its findings available to government agencies in Washington DC and to the press.

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Suzie Davidowitz: Increasingly, the FBI and the media turn to atl for his expertise which launched an important relationship with law enforcement that continues to this day.

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Suzie Davidowitz: All of this work, eventually evolved into adl Center on extremism which monitors extremism across the ideological spectrum.

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Suzie Davidowitz: adl staff of investigators analysts researchers and technical experts strategically monitors exposes and disrupts extremists threats on the Internet and on the ground.

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Suzie Davidowitz: It is considered to be the foremost authority on extremism, terrorism and hate both foreign and domestic.

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Suzie Davidowitz: Just Google adl and Center on extremism to learn more and to view the adl interactive heat map a first of its kind interactive and customizable map detailing hate extremism anti Semitic incidences by state and nationwide.

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Suzie Davidowitz: apropos of today's topic a critical part of the center's work is tracking and exposing whites to premise, for example in March of this year.

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Suzie Davidowitz: The FBI race arrested whites to premise Paul and Miller on three federal weapons charges adl Center on extremism had identified him five months earlier.

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Suzie Davidowitz: As a volatiles white supremacist was using increasingly radical and violent rhetoric, as well as displaying weapons and real life extremists related activities adl Center on extremism reported him to federal law enforcement authorities in New Jersey.

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Suzie Davidowitz: This is why today's program is so important to atl We are extremely grateful to the Museum of Jewish heritage to integrity, first for America and to eli rosenbaum and the Department of Justice for making it possible, thank you all so much for tuning in.

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Ari Goldstein: Thank you susie and it's all of our honor at the museum to.

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Ari Goldstein: Count adl is our co presenter today our other Co presenter is integrity, first for America.

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Ari Goldstein: As soon as you mentioned, integrity, first for America is leading the charge in signs the Kessler.

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Ari Goldstein: The federal lawsuit that seeking to bankrupt and dismantle the hate groups that marched in charlottesville Virginia, the deadly 2017 tonight the right rally the trial is set to begin it in less than 40 days.

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Ari Goldstein: So this is an urgent and discussion Karen done and amy's batali joining us on today's panel are two members of the team behind signs the Kessler Karen as leading litigator and amy as Executive Director of integrity, first for America welcome Karen.

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Ari Goldstein: eli rosenbaum is the former director of the office of special investigations at the US Department of Justice and is now a senior official and its successor unit.

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Ari Goldstein: He spent more than three decades identifying team naturalising and deporting World War Two Nazi war criminals and exposing the hidden Nazi past of public figures.

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Ari Goldstein: moderating today's discussion is john avlon senior political analyst at CNN.

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Ari Goldstein: Among other projects john is the creator and host of reality check extremist beat a new CNN series on the roots of q&a which will premiere tonight on CNN COM.

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Ari Goldstein: please feel free to share questions for our panelists as to get into the discussion will take as many as we can, towards the end of the hour, without further ado, a warm welcome to all of you feel free to get started.

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John Avlon: Thank you are a and i'm really looking forward to this conversation.

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John Avlon: Nazi hunting is a term which captures people's attention.

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John Avlon: But it is not a simply a past preoccupation is ongoing lawsuits involving the United the right rally show.

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John Avlon: But eli I want to begin with you because you are distinguished as in some cases, America is preeminent Nazi hunter within the Department of Justice tell us what that means in real terms, what does it mean to be a Nazi hundred working for the DOJ.

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John Avlon: Well, I think you've gotta unmute.

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Eli Rosenbaum: Forgive me, sorry there's not a lot of competition for that title of course there, but there are a few of us still working on the Nazi cases and we we brought one and tried it in memphis just last year and we deported the.

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Eli Rosenbaum: The individual Friedrich called burger just this year, obviously, to very late date we don't have criminal jurisdiction in the World War Two Nazi cases.

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Eli Rosenbaum: that's not permitted under the US Constitution, so what we were left with when our program was belatedly launched at DOJ in 1979 was a civil jurisdiction for the most part.

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Eli Rosenbaum: The naturalization that is civil a revocation of naturalized us citizenship trying the case in article three federal district court and then all.

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Eli Rosenbaum: follow on deportation proceedings in immigration court what we today tend to call removal proceedings if a foreign government requested extradition which hardly has ever happened then that's an expedited process that kind of sounds in criminal law.

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Eli Rosenbaum: And we would handle those as well with colleagues elsewhere in the Justice Department so i'm not a big fan of the expression Nazi hunting, it makes it seem like.

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Eli Rosenbaum: something other than it is what it is, is a professional and very challenging law enforcement work but i've made my peace with it i've heard it often enough.

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John Avlon: Well, I think the important point that provides continuity between you and Karen and amy is that justice and accountability in America is achieved through the law and Karen.

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John Avlon: You have a very different career trajectory though you have done time in the federal government, so to speak, um but tell us about the case that you and amy are bringing with regards to the united the right rally, which is scheduled to go to trial and next month.

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Karen Dunn: so well, first of all thank you for having me and it's true my my roots are, as a lawyer for the government.

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Karen Dunn: And as a federal prosecutor, so this is the case that i've done in private practice that most resembles the cases I used to bring as a prosecutor.

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Karen Dunn: We have brought on behalf of 10 plaintiffs who were injured in the events of August 11 and 12th 2017 a case under the Ku Klux Klan act for conspiracy to commit.

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Karen Dunn: racially motivated violence in charlottesville, and so we are as it's always kind of chilling when you hear how many days you are from trial, but we are fewer than 40 days from trial.

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Karen Dunn: starts October 25 our defendants in this case are the leaders of the white supremacist and neo Nazi movement in the country today.

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Karen Dunn: Some familiar names Richard Spencer Matthew high inbox Jason Kessler and others.

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Karen Dunn: Who organized and executed events that were violent and resulted in death and grievous injury, including two are very Blackberry plaintiffs, and so I I.

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Karen Dunn: Our work is very different than what eli does so wonderfully, but I think there are really common threads and mission to well we and here are doing.

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John Avlon: And amy I understand you had a.

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John Avlon: ruling just last night, which was pretty significant in terms of the trajectory of the case tell us about that.

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So.

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Amy Spitalnick: And again, thank you to all of you for being here and for having us, and this is a particular honor for me to get to be a part of this discussion because i'm the granddaughter of Holocaust survivors, and so this is very meaning to be with eli.

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Amy Spitalnick: meaningful to be with eli and and, of course, the museum, which has been an incredible partner in this work and and.

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Amy Spitalnick: Telling the story of what is actually happening, which is really what this case is about I think it's about making clear the facts of that horrific weekend for years ago.

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Amy Spitalnick: The violent ideology that underpins how these groups operate and these leaders operate and, of course, winning justice and accountability at a time when it has been so sorely lacking.

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Amy Spitalnick: And to that point, even before we get to trial Karen and our team have entire list and holding the defendants accountable to their obligations and just last night.

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Amy Spitalnick: We want really I think significant stunning evidentiary sanctions against a key neo Nazi defendant Robert asthma door Ray who some of you might know because he was a prolific writer for the neo Nazi site, the daily stormer.

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Amy Spitalnick: And tortuously violently participated and helped organize the unite the right violence, including with a very notorious anti Semitic banner that I won't repeat the words that they carried here, but you can certainly read in our complaint and what these evidentiary sanctions.

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Amy Spitalnick: Did is effectively establish as fact, in this case that re entered into an agreement with co conspirators to engage in racially motivated violence in charlottesville that weekend for years ago.

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Amy Spitalnick: And a number of other facts that are really at the heart of our lawsuit so establishing these facts, even before we get to trial is crucial.

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Amy Spitalnick: For a number of reasons, and I think it also is really a perfect example of the impact this case has had the success, this case has had even before we get to travel, when we go to trial, we have the potential to win large judgments.

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Amy Spitalnick: against these defendants and can effectively bankrupt disrupt and dismantle that these individuals and these organizations.

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Amy Spitalnick: And that is important for the accountability that they need to face it's important for the deterrent effect that creates for others.

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Amy Spitalnick: But even before trial we've had defendants, not just face major evidentiary sanctions like Robert Ray or Elliot Klein, who have had similar sanctions against him.

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Amy Spitalnick: we've also had major financial penalties five figure sanctions and, in fact, Richard Spencer, perhaps one of our most notorious defendants.

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Amy Spitalnick: has called this case quote financially crippling, and so this shows us that if you are going to flout court orders if you're not going to follow the rule of law.

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Amy Spitalnick: You will actually face consequences, even before we get to trial, and I think it's been particularly heartening to watch our legal team, make sure that these defendants live up to their obligations.

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Amy Spitalnick: And that, if they don't they face consequences like this, which will have an enormous impact when trial starts just next month.

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John Avlon: What a concept um I, I must say that.

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John Avlon: it's it's.

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John Avlon: interesting to see judges in force these mechanisms, even before trial because I think that often does not happen in cases.

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John Avlon: Like pull back for a second tell us how the US Government getting involved in this line of work, which I know you reluctantly, I accept is called Nazi hunting but, but what what what was the entry point and the the the legal innovations that were put forth in the early days.

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Eli Rosenbaum: Well, in the in the first few decades after World War Two, the Justice Department and it's been immigration and naturalization service component.

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Eli Rosenbaum: tried to bring Nazi cases and they routinely failed, there were a couple of victories and that's all and they failed because these cases are extraordinarily challenging and imagine trying to prove.

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Eli Rosenbaum: Facts the crimes that took place decades earlier far away from the United States crimes that were committed in a manner intended to physically eliminate those people who might have been inclined would have been inclined, I think, to to cooperate with a government investigation.

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Eli Rosenbaum: Finally, and this is sort of a typical Washington story right.

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Eli Rosenbaum: The New York Times and other newspapers in the 70s started focusing on fact they were appeared to be Nazi criminals, not just in Germany, not just in Austria in South America, but even in the United States.

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Eli Rosenbaum: That caught the attention of Congress, especially then congresswoman Elizabeth holtzman she and others precipitated hearings hearings were covered by the media.

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Eli Rosenbaum: Finally, there was a critical mass of outrage in the country and the Carter administration was pressured to set up a special unit.

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Eli Rosenbaum: In the criminal division at the OJ and that's what they did, and I think the approach that we've taken is of a piece with the famous Justice Department strategy.

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Eli Rosenbaum: In the Al Capone case right, I mean he was a major mobster in Chicago killed lots of people lots of people were killed on his orders.

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Eli Rosenbaum: DOJ could never prove it in the end, what they were able to bring was a tax fraud case and we won that long before I was born and.

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Eli Rosenbaum: And jailed him so you take what authorities, you have that's what we did in the Nazi cases right we took.

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Eli Rosenbaum: Civil the naturalization civil deportation and, I dare say that integrity first is doing same thing right they they have found a good authorities in the law that the Ku Klux Klan act hardly ever use.

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Eli Rosenbaum: But it may work and and so you use what you can to to pursue the rule of law and some measure of justice.

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John Avlon: i'm so glad you mentioned that because i'm fascinated by the fact Karen that your team is using the 1871 KKK i'm just finishing, a book on Lincoln and the fight for peace and so i've been.

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John Avlon: reading and writing a lot about.

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This.

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John Avlon: How does it apply and how did you discover that it was the best precedent, the best remedy to draw upon.

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Karen Dunn: yeah so the KKK act as you say, was the reconstruction era statute.

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Karen Dunn: designed to protect blacks in the south really at the time that it was passed and I, we can never talk about this without.

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Karen Dunn: Expressing some incredible regret that in the year 21, this is the most clickable statute and that it's such a good fit.

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Karen Dunn: For our case and essentially this is shorthand but it prohibits conspiracy to do racially motivated violence or conspiracies to deprive other people of their civil rights, which is what happened in charlottesville.

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Karen Dunn: And so the sad fact is, is it does appear to be more or less a good fit for the fact of our case, which was premeditated planned acts of.

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Karen Dunn: That you know reasonably foresee a reasonably foreseeable violence would occur and motivated by racial animus and under the law hatred of juicing is included in the concept of legally of racial animus and so you know if you're looking around, for you know.

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Karen Dunn: Under what statute is this conduct conduct for which people can be held civilly liable, this is.

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Karen Dunn: This is a statute The other reason it's very useful here is because it creates a private right of action for individuals, so you don't have to be the government.

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Karen Dunn: To bring a case under the KKK at you can be the people who were injured in charlottesville that weekend and so that is one reason that this is.

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Karen Dunn: Along with other civil rights statutes that create these rights it's sort of a piece of other statutes.

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Karen Dunn: That you know our our kind of on the rise, actually in legal cases which is sad to say, but but helpful and then we've also brought some claims that are really just torque claims State law to work claims that you know for intentional infliction of emotional distress and other injury.

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John Avlon: amy I understand this case also draws upon.

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John Avlon: precedent set in the Nuremberg trials so.

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John Avlon: Explain.

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Amy Spitalnick: Well, I think thematically it certainly draws from the the point of the Nuremberg trials which, and in fact just a couple months ago Karen and I, and one of our colleagues got to do an event with project Nuremberg, where they honored this case because.

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Amy Spitalnick: It represents the spirit of the Nuremberg trials, and so I think.

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Amy Spitalnick: While i'm not sure that there is a formal connection in that way, I think that, in terms of the theme in terms of the spirit of what the Nuremberg trials were about this case squarely fits in.

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Amy Spitalnick: The importance of seeking accountability and justice, even after after the fact, many cases it has been four years since charlottesville it has been a long road towards accountability.

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Amy Spitalnick: For years, in which we saw so little accountability, not just as it relates to charlottesville but certainly the broader cycle of extremism.

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Amy Spitalnick: And I think it's important to be clear about that in that accountability, it might be hard, it might be hard fought It certainly has been in this case.

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Amy Spitalnick: But it's so crucial that it happens when it finally happens, not just because those responsible deserve to be brought to justice, even if it's years after the fact, which i'm sure is a theme and eli has work as well.

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Amy Spitalnick: But it is also important because it's that accountability that then serves as a deterrent to others who are looking on and seeing.

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Amy Spitalnick: That there will actually be very real consequences for this sort of violence and this sort of extremism and we're seeing that in this case we're seeing how some have said.

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Amy Spitalnick: They aren't they weren't going to return to charlottesville in 2018 for another event because they didn't want to be sued again.

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Amy Spitalnick: Some defendants, have said they can't open a new build air go about their business because of this lawsuit.

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Amy Spitalnick: And we're seeing that same sort of determine effect among some of their supporters who are recognizing the consequences.

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Amy Spitalnick: And so there is really I think a direct line that runs from the Nuremberg trials and runs, of course, with the work that eli is doing to this case because at the core it's the very same concept of accountability and justice, no matter how hard fought and how long it takes.

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John Avlon: yeah and I think the.

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John Avlon: Nuremberg Trial and I, you know.

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John Avlon: Particularly recommend people read or watch.

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John Avlon: Justice jackson's opening statement I think that's something that should be more widely taught in America schools.

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Eli Rosenbaum: And said it's done, could I could I.

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Eli Rosenbaum: echo what amy said I see another another link right the Nuremberg Trial which which mesmerized world in 1945 46 and, by the way the 75th anniversary of the judgment of the Tribunal is eight days from now on.

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Eli Rosenbaum: October one so it's timely that we're we're discussing it now that trial.

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Eli Rosenbaum: Educated the world in many respects, including showing how hate speech Nazi speech and the dissemination of hatred using especially using new technologies in hitler's case radio and also aviation, which enabled him to go all over the country and have these huge rallies.

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Eli Rosenbaum: leads directly to violence and that of course the harnessing of of hate hate ideology white supremacy and neo Nazi ISM harnessing of that.

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Eli Rosenbaum: Is what helped lead to the violence that shocked us all in charlottesville.

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John Avlon: I want to actually stay with you eli because.

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John Avlon: As someone who's devoted their life to where you know deporting denationalising Nazis and sees that cohort.

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John Avlon: Dwindling you know by by by nature time.

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John Avlon: How does it, how do you understand.

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John Avlon: The persistence of Nazi ISM even, indeed, that the rise of it again in our in our society, I mean it.

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John Avlon: someone's devoted their life to this, how do you make sense of that persistence of this particular strain of eight when it should have lost all legitimacy in the minds of every human being based on what we know.

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Eli Rosenbaum: I think, frankly, when when I was much younger, including when I was a young prosecutor, it had lost almost.

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Eli Rosenbaum: All of its legitimacy, they were still pockets of it, I remember once having to make a trip inside the headquarters of the American Nazi party which.

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Eli Rosenbaum: outrageously was located right outside of Washington in arlington Virginia almost a stone's throw from from arlington national cemetery where so many heroes are buried.

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Eli Rosenbaum: But I think the number of factors are a number of factors that have contributed to its revival, one is certainly the Internet.

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Eli Rosenbaum: Technology that the American Nazi party could not have have ramped up they went out of business because they couldn't.

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Eli Rosenbaum: afford to pay the rent on their building or the printing of their hate filled publications now you don't need any money for that just need a computer and an Internet account, and you can reach millions upon millions of people.

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Eli Rosenbaum: I tend to think that in the United States, the other contributing main contributing factor is the passing of the so called greatest generation.

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Eli Rosenbaum: Men and women who who saved the world as President Clinton said it at Normandy years ago.

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Eli Rosenbaum: In World War Two.

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Eli Rosenbaum: My dad was combat veteran of World War Two, and I think back then, in the 60s 70s 80s any person who would have dare to voice support for Nazis in the United States would have been taken to the woodshed by his dad who would explain what he fought for, but those men are gone.

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John Avlon: Karen in the case to date, how to use understand.

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John Avlon: It can't just be historical ignorance.

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John Avlon: That accounts for the recent rise in Nazi ISM and white supremacy with Nazi iconography I mean, how do you understand why we're seeing this now.

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Karen Dunn: Well, so, first of all, I think I should have talked to eli year ago.

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Karen Dunn: Because there is a lot of commonality and what he's saying and what we have seen in this case I I do think the accessibility.

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Karen Dunn: to plan and coordinate with other people cannot be understated or cannot be overstated, so the events in charlottesville were planned substantially on a on a platform called discord.

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Karen Dunn: which was not invented for this purpose it's primarily used by gamers to talk to one another but it's an invitation only chat platform, and so you know much of.

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Karen Dunn: The the heat and the hate hate filled communications and the planning happened on on the discord platform, not in person, and so you know, the fact is.

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Karen Dunn: A gathering on the scale of the unite the right just would not and and you know January six frankly would just not have been possible at any other earlier time in history.

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Karen Dunn: Without some organized political party, and so I I think you know there's that is really unprecedented as far as we can tell.

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Karen Dunn: And I do think you know, there are, I think the way the deal, I put in, I thought was really beautiful about the greatest generation.

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Karen Dunn: But there has been a shift of norms in our country and things that are acceptable now never would have been acceptable before.

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Karen Dunn: For some combination of reasons, and I think we're really seeing that I also think you know we at this point, have deposed a lot of white supremacists and one theme that clearly comes through is just their endemic frustration.

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Karen Dunn: That you know, is really driving a lot of this, and so that you know I that i've.

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John Avlon: been approached you on that.

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John Avlon: What what what what kinds of frustrations lead one to become a Nazi.

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Karen Dunn: Well, I think there are probably a lot of people are frustrated who do not become Nazis.

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Karen Dunn: But I will say it is, it does seem to be a common feature of a lot of the folks that we have spoken to in the course of our case of just this frustration.

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Karen Dunn: that there are other groups that have organizations and advocates and they feel like there's nobody advocating for them.

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Karen Dunn: and obviously this is not, you know, this goes in a direction that is terrible and that we can countenance but you know I will save their the the passion, on the other side that's The other thing you cannot.

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Karen Dunn: minimize.

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Karen Dunn: The vm ins and the and the strength of us that we are up against I mean it is very, very, very intense, obviously.

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John Avlon: Is this life God that quote unquote replacement theory is that.

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Karen Dunn: Yes.

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Karen Dunn: that's what I was just got one part of it, I mean amy speaks about this.

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Karen Dunn: Really, she should do that, but it is, I think one thing I will say in this group of people understand.

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Karen Dunn: A very tiny percentage of what's going on, we monitor this every day, and we, like you, I have gone deep in the heart of what is going on, and I think that that the vast majority of the American public understand a tiny little sliver of what is happening.

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Amy Spitalnick: And I wholeheartedly agree with both what Karen and eli said, and I think it's important to understand.

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Amy Spitalnick: Just the point Karen was just making that I think there are a lot of people who feel like perhaps there was election, things have changed in this country and the threat of extremism might have.

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Amy Spitalnick: gone away, after January six and after January 20, and that is certainly not the case, I think we are in one of the most dire moments in recent history when it comes to the threat.

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Amy Spitalnick: of Violent extremism in this country and charlottesville in so many ways, really was just the preview or the harbinger of that.

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Amy Spitalnick: And at the core of what happened in charlottesville and and so many other incidents of violence over the last few years is the replacement theory that you that you mentioned and.

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Amy Spitalnick: What Karen was describing in terms of the frustrations and ideology of these defendants speaks precisely to this that's an idea to have a quick refresher for those who don't know the replacement theory.

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Amy Spitalnick: To this idea that like with so many conspiracy theories, many of the same conspiracy theories that motivated the original Nazis in the 30s and 40s.

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Amy Spitalnick: Jews are the puppet masters, who are orchestrating the ills of society, or what they believe to be the ills of society, it could be a variety of ills.

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Amy Spitalnick: In the modern manifestation it is demographic changes in this country, the particular success or strength of the black Community like our first black president of the black lives matter protest last summer, which brought attention to racial injustice.

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Amy Spitalnick: Of course, immigration refugees coming to this country and hopes of a better life, and so it manifests in very explicit obvious ways.

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Amy Spitalnick: Like in charlottesville where they quite literally chanted Jews will not replace us that's what they meant by that.

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Amy Spitalnick: In Pittsburgh, where the shooter specifically chose that synagogue because they work with highest the Hebrew immigrant aid society to support refugees of all backgrounds coming to this country.

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Amy Spitalnick: And, of course, in so many other attacks, including the Boston poway the El paso attack and echoes of it on January six when you hear about stopping the steel of this country.

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Amy Spitalnick: And some of the Nazi and confederate paraphernalia that was found at the Capitol day.

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Amy Spitalnick: And so we know it manifests in very explicitly isn't that there are also direct connections between these attacks.

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Amy Spitalnick: For example, the Pittsburgh cheater communicated with them charlottesville leaders, the Christ church shooter who is motivated by the same ideology and his attack and New Zealand two and a half years ago I donated to some of our charlottesville defendants and.

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Amy Spitalnick: wrote to Richard Spencer and Andrew England and painted on to his gun a white power symbol popularized by a third defendant Matthew highmark this symbol, known as the fast track.

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Amy Spitalnick: Cross Church was live streamed and, in turn, inspired the hubspot attack and poway El paso attack.

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Amy Spitalnick: And so you really see these direct connections in which this ideology is obvious it's explicit and of course it's really, really dangerous I think equally dangerous to that.

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Amy Spitalnick: Is what carrying started to allude to the ways in which some of extremism has been mainstream.

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Amy Spitalnick: How the norms in this country are starting to shift and we are now seeing this ideology this replacement theory manifest in.

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Amy Spitalnick: More mainstream forums last night Tucker carlson gave an explicit endorsement of it on fox news and that shouldn't be partisan to call that out we've had elected officials.

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Amy Spitalnick: literally a spouse replacement theory in their official capacities and they're not even trying to hide it in certain ways they are exclusively talking about the replacement of white people in this country.

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Amy Spitalnick: And while it might not be.

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Amy Spitalnick: Violent neo Nazis marching on the streets of charlottesville chanting Jesus will not replace us, it has the very same intent, which is that it shows the norms in this country are changing, and I think in some ways it's more dangerous.

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Amy Spitalnick: because it shows the norms are changing and it gives a green light to extremists motivated by that hate motivated by that ideology.

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Amy Spitalnick: To take action, so I think we need to be clear eyed about what motivated these attacks, how it connects to historical extremism and anti semitism.

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Amy Spitalnick: And Deborah lives that has a fantastic export report in our case that talks about just that that will be sure to send around but also be really theorized about how it's becoming increasingly mainstreamed in recent years.

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Eli Rosenbaum: Because those.

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Eli Rosenbaum: As amy says so so powerfully I mean we do indeed live in perilous times.

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Eli Rosenbaum: Times that I think most of us could never have imagined even even a few a few years ago, I think I should note that the Attorney General merrick Garland has.

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Eli Rosenbaum: announced that significant additional resources or being deployed to fight combat hate hate crimes and also FBI director Chris Ray testified the other day about a huge ramping up of domestic terrorism investigation.

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John Avlon: And and.

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Eli Rosenbaum: had success the FBI has had success in in preventing hate, violence, for example, last year in Las Vegas.

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John Avlon: Yes, and and you know, as has been pointed out, merrick Garland, of course, you know first guy that came to public prominence and his prosecution in the wake of Oklahoma city.

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John Avlon: To the extent that different forms of hate are connected on some level, but I want to stay there with you eli I mean given your perspective and devoted a life to to bringing X Nazis to justice, do you see explicit echoes in the rhetoric of hate that we see.

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John Avlon: creeping into the mainstream today, or does it feel.

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John Avlon: distinct.

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Eli Rosenbaum: It feels distinct in the sense that there is not a government directing directing what's happening right it's not the Nazi regime of.

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Eli Rosenbaum: World War Two era, but it's empowered greatly in different ways, and as amy and Karen have said a lot of the themes are the same.

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Eli Rosenbaum: And so many of these people have access to weapons of various kinds, and so many of them use those weapons against innocent people, so the ECHO and the symbols that they use.

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Eli Rosenbaum: The themes and symbols that they use the definitely echo what what the Nazis did in their acolytes in in the 1930s and 40s.

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Karen Dunn: yeah so one thing I want to add to this is, I do think and i'm I am not the expert that ui is, but I do think there's just a greater degree.

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Karen Dunn: of misinformation that is utilized to sort of cloud what's going on, so I think, whereas there was a certain amount of Nazi ISM that you know wasn't organized political party very much owned.

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Karen Dunn: The actual violence and hate here, there is a desire to cast what is happening as jokes.

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Karen Dunn: or violent acts that are really self Defense which sometimes are violent acts that are provoked so that they can be violent acts and then clean self Defense later, and so the tactics are actually quite sophisticated as far as increasing.

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Karen Dunn: You know the intend to do, violence and the execution of violence in things that seem more acceptable.

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Karen Dunn: Like political rallies and self Defense and such.

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Karen Dunn: And so I actually you know have come to believe it's very strategic I think the you know the writings the articles there it's very strategic what's going on and much less overt.

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Karen Dunn: As far as the you know the true intent, and I think that is you know to me that is a very likely difference between the modern era and the history.

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John Avlon: I will say, though, that um.

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John Avlon: One thing that that was used in the days of the KKK and it's offshoot organizations, the White citizens Councils and all that was this tactic that you just described called aggressive defensiveness where they would come into rallies and and provoke violence and then use that as a justification.

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John Avlon: For violence, I mean some of this stuff really is kind of cut and pasted.

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John Avlon: synaptic cord.

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John Avlon: And that.

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Amy Spitalnick: we're seeing right now in portland and and so many other cities that are facing the sort of street fighting by the proud boys and other extremist it's that very same sort of tactic.

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John Avlon: interesting how much amy have you mean you alluded to this but.

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John Avlon: How you put the genie back in the bottle is always very difficult, especially when you've got decentralized groups and movements, and I think one common thread this conversation, is that the Internet social media.

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John Avlon: has made it possible to aggregate people whose extremist views might have alienated them in the past right.

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John Avlon: But, to what extent does the presence of these suits hasn't shown specifically that it can take take an organization and and and and and bankrupt it and you know diffuse it.

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John Avlon: In meaningful ways.

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Amy Spitalnick: it's been very clear that suits like this have impact and, if you look historically at some of the civil litigation brought against the KKK or against other extremist groups like the Michael Donald case brought by the SLC.

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Amy Spitalnick: In which ultimately Michael Donald who's a victim of clan violence his mother one the deed, to the tuscaloosa headquarters of the KKK and now you know well known case.

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Amy Spitalnick: Perhaps one of the best examples of how hate groups have been bankrupt through civil litigation, like the similarly.

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Amy Spitalnick: Case actually brought by karen's from PO ways in the 90s against the Nuremberg files, which is a far right site.

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Amy Spitalnick: Targeting reproductive health clinics and that effectively went after those groups targeting those those health professionals bankrupt them chase them around for the rest of their life is collecting on those judgments.

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Amy Spitalnick: And so there's a strong history, here we know this works and we're seeing it in this case.

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Amy Spitalnick: With a lot of the defendants in our pseudo reading marginalized things this loss of people like Richard Spencer, who three or four years ago, was one of the leading neo Nazis in this country coining the term all right.

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Amy Spitalnick: And he himself has talked about how we financially crippled him quote unquote and how.

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Amy Spitalnick: he's no longer able to really go about his business and we've heard similar comments from other defendants I don't want to suggest that this suit is a silver bullet, though, and needs to go hand in hand.

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Amy Spitalnick: With so much other work and needs to go hand in hand with criminal prosecutions, that of course us has alluded to in terms of January 6 and the other work coming out of the Garland DOJ.

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Amy Spitalnick: It needs to go hand in hand with not just federal action but local and state action hate crimes in particular are central to are really state and local prosecutions are central to.

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Amy Spitalnick: Holding those responsible for hate crimes accountable and my prior life I worked in the New York a GS office and only saw a spike in hate crimes after the 2016 election with the issue of Bulletin to local.

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Amy Spitalnick: Governments and PDS reminding them of their obligations.

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Amy Spitalnick: To hold those responsible for hate crimes accountable we're 2020 according to the FBI was the worst year for hate crime since 2001 so that is clearly.

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Amy Spitalnick: another manifestation of extremism this country, it might not be a flashy event like unite the right but on a day to day basis we're seeing hate crimes, really.

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Amy Spitalnick: terrorized communities around this country and of course we need action from social media companies in the private sector.

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Amy Spitalnick: There are social media companies that can act and might act with pressure, and then there are those who have both entire business models and giving a home to extremism and if they won't act, we need domain registrar's web hosting companies to take action.

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Amy Spitalnick: Because we know that the platforming these extremists, making sure they don't have an unnecessarily large audience or voice has major impacts in their ability to recruit.

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Amy Spitalnick: And to operate again don't take it, for me, Richard Spencer said it just in our case, where he said because he's been the platform he can't go about his business.

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Amy Spitalnick: And so it requires the sort of whole of government and whole of society approach civil litigation now plays a really crucial role.

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John Avlon: we're going to get to.

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John Avlon: Some questions in just a second the draw on that, but for do Karen I wanted to ask you about the downstream effect of this have you seen any of the individuals that.

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John Avlon: have come on your radar and unite the right has there been any overlap organizationally or individually in the January six attack, as far as you've seen.

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Karen Dunn: yeah so as amy said before there's there is some overlap are defendants, however, I think, potentially, due to the determining factor of this lawsuit we're not.

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Karen Dunn: At on the capital premises on January six and and many of them have said that this suit has affected them.

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Karen Dunn: Financially, and then you know, we have received from the Court sanctions against a number of the defendants and just.

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Karen Dunn: it's you know I am obviously a trial lawyer, so I I think about these things lot.

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Karen Dunn: it's very, very unusual to get pre trial evidentiary sanctions against defendants in case it just nearly never happens, and so, in our case, due to the extreme discovery misconduct.

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Karen Dunn: Of the defendants, which included destruction of evidence on the Court has already found a racially motivated conspiracy to do violence.

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Karen Dunn: As to some of our defendants and it has already levied financial penalties and in one case through somebody in jail for a little while due to their discovery misconduct, so I do think the downstream effects are undeniable.

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Karen Dunn: Both in the micro sense and, we hope, frankly, in the macro sense I mean i'm just a big believer that.

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Karen Dunn: You know it's one thing for me, as a lawyer aware used to work in government.

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Karen Dunn: To stand up in court and say these people need to be held accountable it's a second thing, even better, for the judge to say it.

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Karen Dunn: But for a jury of regular people from the Western district of Virginia to see all the evidence in the case, probably the first time that all the facts of what happened that weekend will be told to any group of people.

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Karen Dunn: If they can come back and return a verdict that says, under our laws, this is not acceptable.

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Karen Dunn: This cannot happen in our country that I hope is the thing that has the most downstream effect and that's really I mean you know for me personally.

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Karen Dunn: That is what you know is is motivating me I believe in the power of a jury verdict, and so, hopefully, hopefully, we will get one here that we like.

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Eli Rosenbaum: done, could I could I just say one thing.

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Eli Rosenbaum: i'm going to take off my my federal official prosecutor hat noun speak personally, there is obviously a big role for for government agencies to play in this space and FBI and ice hsi and and the Justice Department overall doing a lot of really good work, but i've always believed that.

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Eli Rosenbaum: There is a big role for civil society and private citizens to play to do the kind of heroic frontline work that the defamation League has been doing for decades that integrity first is doing now, including in the Kessler suit.

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Eli Rosenbaum: These are essential undertakings for the protection of our our citizenry for protection of our country, I am pleased to see.

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Eli Rosenbaum: That civil remedies are becoming are coming into greater use so not only the KKK act that integrity first is is using but but live allies, which we're now now seeing us to know that can be very powerful weapon in this battle line i'm very, very pleased to see it.

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Eli Rosenbaum: In the comment or.

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John Avlon: Fair enough, so now we're getting some questions from folks and because we've got around 15 minutes left you know I think this one is from you from from mark fogle yeah if they.

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John Avlon: I believe the people of the United the right can had conspired to commit violence isn't that a criminal act, and if so, why hasn't the DOJ prosecuted.

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Eli Rosenbaum: Well, to Jay has i'm not the authority on those cases, the civil rights division at the Department of Justice is FBI, of course, of course, also is and.

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Eli Rosenbaum: A variety of cases have been brought, including the man who drove the car in charlottesville was prosecuted and convicted, yes, so it does it does happen, but.

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Eli Rosenbaum: there's a much broader REACH, I think, in the use of, for instance, the KKK.

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Amy Spitalnick: i'll just add to.

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Amy Spitalnick: That, I think you know the impetus for integrity first from ever being founded in 2017 was.

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Amy Spitalnick: Perhaps gaps that might exist in this space, and so it made it all the more important for us to bring this lawsuit in the aftermath of unite the right.

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Amy Spitalnick: Because we weren't sure what was necessarily going to happen, and so I don't want to speculate speculate about what might happen in a different world if charlottesville would have even happened in a different world there's a lot to say.

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Amy Spitalnick: A lot to say about that that is probably for a different discussion another time or a sort of choose your own adventure book about the narrative arc of the last.

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Amy Spitalnick: Five six years in this country, but I think that recognizing where there are gaps was was the biggest impetus for us to to bring this, or rather for IFA to be formed and to support litigation like this.

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Eli Rosenbaum: If I could put my DOJ hat back on, I would say also, I believe what you're seeing is something approaching a at least that Department of Justice a so called whole of government kind of approach.

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Eli Rosenbaum: To to combating these things as an example, my office, human rights and spark special prosecution section which.

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Eli Rosenbaum: brings suit against not only Nazi perpetrators by human rights violators from the conflicts in Bosnia and Rwanda, Guatemala, if you obey and elsewhere we've detailed.

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Eli Rosenbaum: Some of our top legal talent, to the US attorney's office in district district of Columbia, to work on the January six cases.

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John Avlon: Right that's interesting that's very interesting.

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John Avlon: Karen a roof asks what legal arguments are the defendants, making in the charlottesville shoot.

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Karen Dunn: A great question also, I just want to say, as the last question, as a former Garland clerk I you know, I have to say I do think this is an issue that he is so well equipped to handle as Attorney General and, frankly, there is nobody I would rather see.

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Karen Dunn: In that job right now so so I just want to want to mention that.

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Karen Dunn: So what arguments are the defendants, making one argument that they made at the motion to dismiss stage that was rejected by the Court.

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Karen Dunn: Was that the first amendment protected.

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Karen Dunn: The conduct that we had alleged and what the judge said, and along the fourth circuit is very strong on this, and this is sort of incontrovertible but.

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Karen Dunn: The for the first amendment does not protect violent activity Similarly, if you talk about how you're going to rob a bank, and then you rob a bank it's evidence about the bank robbery it's not it doesn't protect you from liability for having robbing.

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Karen Dunn: So that's one argument that did not fair well at the motion to dismiss stage and the judge said, if we prove the fact that we alleged.

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Karen Dunn: That the defendants would be liable under the law for their conduct another defensive they bring really is the self Defense Defense, which is to say.

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Karen Dunn: You know they there wasn't an intent for there to be violence, the discussion that seemed very threatening leading up to these events were just jokes and then actually they the it was the counter protesters who showed up.

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Karen Dunn: Who really initiated the confrontations and the people on the side of the white supremacist just reacted to that and violence ensued.

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Karen Dunn: And so, one of the witnesses, that we have at this trial is an expert really in way to premises tactics and communication, and so this idea that.

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Karen Dunn: It when you post things where you write things you want to say it in a way harder joking manner so that leader, you can say.

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Karen Dunn: It was just a joke, I was just joking, so there are a lot of posts that are very threatening very violent and then they end with like an Lol.

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Karen Dunn: So you know look I was just joking, and so we don't really you know, so we have as a witness in this case.

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Karen Dunn: One of the premier experts on white supremacy in America who's going to tell our jury, you know, here are some of the tactics that are used as a general matter, and they will they basically are all seen on display in our case, we think that will be very helpful to the jury interesting.

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John Avlon: You like this question is from mark does the government track money that's funnel to hate groups, he says, like Richard spencer's but let's open it up to you know, in general, what what are, what is the process on that.

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Eli Rosenbaum: Well, once it once again I wish we had a colleague from the justice department's civil rights.

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Eli Rosenbaum: Division so that's actually outside my lane outside my area of expertise, but I in the FBI has made clear that they are closely monitoring links among groups and.

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Eli Rosenbaum: The way that violent groups are able to amass resources.

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John Avlon: me let's get this one this one's for you this is sort of a broader existential strategic question but.

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John Avlon: Can rational discussion persuade extremists that their views are wrong or is that a waste of time.

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Amy Spitalnick: existential questions we have many of them in this case and sometimes I choose to focus on the more practical because the existential ones can be quite daunting like this one.

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Amy Spitalnick: I think I generally and maybe i'm cynical, I think that there are certainly those we can persuade, but there are those who are too entrenched in their beliefs.

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Amy Spitalnick: That, rather than persuade them to come to the light side, the correct side.

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Amy Spitalnick: We simply have to marginalize them, we have to push them back into the shadows, where they belong, and that is a potential impact of this case by making clear of the consequences for taking those vile those violent and hateful.

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Amy Spitalnick: ideas and turning them into real world action.

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Amy Spitalnick: I think this speaks to, of course, the first amendment distinction in this case as well, that if the defendant simply gone to charlottesville with their vital and important views and their Nazi.

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Amy Spitalnick: paraphernalia and chance that's protected conduct in this country and as horrific as I find it in, as all of us probably find that they have every right to believe that.

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Amy Spitalnick: But that's not what happened in charlottesville and that's not what's happening in this country right now there are far too many people involved in an empowered to turn those beliefs into real world action, and we need to make clear.

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Amy Spitalnick: put this movement on notice that there will be consequences for doing that and so maybe again i'm cynical, but I think.

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Amy Spitalnick: While we can change some hearts and minds we can't change all of them, and what we can do is just make very clear the consequences and push them back into the shadows, where they belong.

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Eli Rosenbaum: To better opportunity, I would say the best opportunity to shape hearts and minds is when people are are young with children, and so there were talking about the obligations that fall to our nation's parents our teachers our faith leaders to do a better job of teaching tolerance.

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Amy Spitalnick: And shout out to the museum, which does absolutely.

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Amy Spitalnick: Yes, regarding.

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John Avlon: All the museums.

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John Avlon: are connected I carolyn we give this one to you and it's related to what amy just asked but, but how does the skokie march relate to this discussion.

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Karen Dunn: Well that's an excellent question that i've never really thought about um I do I, one thing I want to say, though, and one reason I was a little bit distracted is we have met people in the course of this case, who have left the movement.

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Karen Dunn: I think sometimes these people are women.

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Karen Dunn: Who kind of look at the you know, the effects of what happened and they say you know, this is not, this is not what I was in in this for, and so I agree with what you I said, I do think you know you have to educate people before you know they become invested.

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Karen Dunn: In you know, in this way and in these groups and make these connections, but it is not impossible for people to leave the movement and I think that's important me, maybe i'm not as cynical as amy which is really shocking.

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Karen Dunn: If you knew the two of us, but I do think that.

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Karen Dunn: That there are ways for people to decide this isn't for me, I mean certainly you know not there are lacking, people who don't fall into that category, no matter what we said that it would not be persuasive, but there are people we have run across them in our case.

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John Avlon: it's helpful a lie we're running we're running down time, but this is a fascinating question have you do with your your macro work have other governments, besides the US and Israel engaged in serious Nazi hunting efforts.

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So, yes.

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Eli Rosenbaum: For the most part, the countries of Europe.

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Eli Rosenbaum: start there gave up on this on these efforts by 1950 the German Government sporadically prosecuted cases, including some very, very important cases like the Auschwitz multi defendant trial in the early to mid 60s, the.

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Eli Rosenbaum: prosecution of French dangle in the late 60s and some others, and since.

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Eli Rosenbaum: 2011 or so, when the Germans prosecutor, one of our best known former defendants DOJ giant them yeah New York, as was mentioned they've become more aggressive or be it at home very late almost too late date in those cases.

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Eli Rosenbaum: The Canadians followed, in a sense, our model and started prosecuting these cases in the 1980s, the last of those cases, it was announced today.

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Eli Rosenbaum: came to an end.

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Eli Rosenbaum: man in homework overlander it was real today died on Monday he was up in Ontario and was the very last Nazi criminal work anywhere in the western hemisphere.

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Eli Rosenbaum: He had actually in 1995 after he was charged in Canada fled to Florida, where he had a condo and a colleague.

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Eli Rosenbaum: of mine and I dropped in on him, that was an interesting day happened to have been the exact 50th anniversary of the day, may 1995 and we sent him back the same day to Canada, but.

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Eli Rosenbaum: His case was languishing in court for some 26 years.

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John Avlon: So the last night same Canada just died.

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Eli Rosenbaum: Last, one that was prosecuted in the western hemisphere.

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John Avlon: So.

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John Avlon: we're just about out of time, but amy I want to give the last word, do you as you and Karen work to bring this to trial, what do you hope will be the.

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John Avlon: Impact of this case.

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Amy Spitalnick: there's there's so much we hope for this, but I think it's pretty simple, I think, at the end of the day, it's about accountability and justice at a moment when it's been sorely lacking accountability.

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Amy Spitalnick: For those responsible for the violence for years ago, who have faced so little who are so deeply connected to the broader extremism we're facing justice for plaintiffs who are so incredibly brave who've taken this horrific.

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Amy Spitalnick: weekend that they survived and child into this case will have impacts that extend well beyond their communities well beyond charlottesville.

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Amy Spitalnick: For justice for charlottesville which I think is Karen described having a jury trials residents of the western district of Virginia holding these extremists accountable, who attacked their Community there's power.

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Amy Spitalnick: And because of the power and then it also really leads to broader impact.

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Amy Spitalnick: The deterrent effect, we hope that this has not just in bankrupting and dismantling the specific defendants in our suit but deterring others from being a part of this violence.

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Amy Spitalnick: And this has been alluded to here the power of a trial.

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Amy Spitalnick: To really capture the public's attention educate the public meet people understand the crisis that we're facing the ideology that's at the core of how these individuals and groups operate the violence as a core.

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Amy Spitalnick: And again, the consequences that we need to make sure happen for being a part of this.

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Amy Spitalnick: We are so certainly going to make sure that the impact of this case, the legacy, the story of this case is told well beyond this fall.

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Amy Spitalnick: We go to trial on October 25 so starting very soon, finally, after for long long years of Karen and our team tirelessly litigating this.

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Amy Spitalnick: But we hope that the legacy is one that extends.

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Amy Spitalnick: far into the future, not just into the tent in terms of the tangible impact on the defendants and the justice for charlottesville in our plaintiffs.

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Amy Spitalnick: But in the turn effect and the legacy that this case has the model, it provides, in the fight against extremism, at a time when it's really needed.

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John Avlon: Well, I want to thank you all for fascinating discussion he, like Karen amy Thank you so much, are you going to come back and close us out.

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Ari Goldstein: Thank you all for being here don if it's okay i'm going to ask one last question, which I think is an important one, how can our audience Members get involved in supporting the trial if they're right there with you guys.

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Amy Spitalnick: Well i'm so glad us thank you.

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Amy Spitalnick: I think there are some links in chat and perhaps will be sent them after the fact, as well, or you can go to integrity, first for america.org.

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Amy Spitalnick: If you sign up for updates, they will make sure that you get regular updates of what's happening during case during trial.

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Amy Spitalnick: It is not easy to necessarily sit on a conference call line all day to listen to what is happening in the courtroom.

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Amy Spitalnick: If you are an average citizen, and so we want to make sure that again the story of this trial is heard around the country and around the world and we will be sending out regular updates, we are also holding a large.

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Amy Spitalnick: Pre trial event actually being in partnership actually with the museum and featuring check pfleger among many others.

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Amy Spitalnick: Next week, on September 30 and folks can sign up for that on our website and integrity, first for america.org.

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Amy Spitalnick: and learn more about this hear from all sorts of other experts in this space about the fight against extremism and again we'll be sure to keep you apprised as we proceed ports trial.

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Ari Goldstein: Both the museum and adl New York New Jersey our supporters of integrity, first for america's work and we urge our audience to get involved cover the legal fees and make sure that this case is a success.

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Ari Goldstein: john Thank you so much for helping us understand this issue more deeply Karen amy eli, thank you for sharing your expertise with us.

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Ari Goldstein: we'll stay in touch with everyone good luck at the trial and we will share an email with our audience tomorrow that includes recording of today's discussion and some follow up links, including john's new CNN serious reality check extremist be wishing everyone a great afternoon.