How Do We Celebrate? A Cultural History of Hanukkah

This program’s original recording transcript is below. This transcription was created automatically during a live program so may contain inaccurate transcriptions of some words.

Sydney Yaeger (she/her): hi everyone, my name is Sydney Yaeger and i'm the public programs coordinator at the Museum of Jewish heritage, a living memorial to the Holocaust and i'm so excited to introduce today's program, how do we celebrate a cultural history of hanukkah.

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Sydney Yaeger (she/her): joining us today are Dr jenna Weissman jocelyn Marjorie angle and stephanie botanic.

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Sydney Yaeger (she/her): Dr jocelyn is the Charles Smith professor of judaic studies and Professor of history at George Washington university.

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Sydney Yaeger (she/her): She is an author, most recently of set in stone america's embrace of the 10 commandments and is also a tablet magazine columnist her work has appeared in the New York Times, the new Republic gastronomical and the forward.

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Sydney Yaeger (she/her): Marjorie angle is the author of modeling knows best what Jewish mothers do to raise successful creative empathetic independent children and the co author of make it right, the case for good apologies coming in 2022.

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Sydney Yaeger (she/her): She often writes about children's books for the New York Times book review.

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Sydney Yaeger (she/her): and has written for many other magazines and newspapers, including tablet and the forward self glamour town and country New York is Red Book wired harper's bazaar real simple and sassy.

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Sydney Yaeger (she/her): stephanie button Nick who will be serving as our moderator is the deputy editor of tablet magazine, and one of the hosts of unorthodox a podcast that focuses on Jewish news and culture.

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Sydney Yaeger (she/her): She also oversees tablets podcast network tablet studios stephanie is one of the co authors of the newest Jewish encyclopedia from Abraham dizzy bars and everything in between.

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Sydney Yaeger (she/her): During the discussion, please feel free to share questions and zoom Q amp a box and we'll get to as many as we can, during the hour.

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Sydney Yaeger (she/her): This program is being recorded and the video will be available tomorrow on the museum's YouTube channel, so thank you all again for being here and i'm now going to hand things over to stephanie and our panelists.

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Stephanie Butnick: Sydney Thank you so much for that introduction and for having me, along with these two illustrious panelists today for what's sure to be a fascinating conversation i'd like to think of myself as the shamash today.

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Stephanie Butnick: The helper the candle that will light your candles allow you to allow the two of these my co interlocutors these these panelists to shine because they are really.

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Stephanie Butnick: Truly brilliant and when I think about holidays and Jewish culture in America they you you two are actually like the people I want to talk to about this stuff so i'm very excited that we can have this conversation for all the attendees here, and you can write questions.

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Stephanie Butnick: For Jennifer Marjorie in the Q amp a box and i'm going to be looking at them throughout we'll have some time for them towards the end so if anything comes up that you want.

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Stephanie Butnick: To ask just just pop it in the chat box and.

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Stephanie Butnick: Great so it's hanukkah.

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Stephanie Butnick: jenna.

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Stephanie Butnick: Because you're The historian.

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um.

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Stephanie Butnick: Tell us sort of how we got here it's 2020 whatever year it is what 2021 in America.

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Stephanie Butnick: On it goes a huge deal.

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Stephanie Butnick: Everyone gathers and lights the candles everyone does the presence, I mean, can you sort of track us how did How did we get here what was how I got always like this was it.

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Stephanie Butnick: Always such a big deal.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: No so hanukkah is we American Jews know it is really a 20th century phenomenon and it's only grown.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: In circumference rather than shrink, like so many other Jewish rituals, and there are as many reasons for its cultural heft as there are candles and I was really tempted, in the spirit of the holiday to write a Jingle.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Know to give Adam sandler a run for his money but I didn't get too far with that, so instead i've created a little list which i'm going to run through if that's okay.

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Stephanie Butnick: With you check it twice before you, you do it.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: No.

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Stephanie Butnick: that's a different holiday i'm sorry.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: If another different holidays, so you ready everybody so here are my eight reasons for hanukkah is.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: large presence in contemporary American Jewish life, one is accident of timing.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: To its embrace of consumerism three the child centeredness of American culture and of American Jewish culture writ large, especially in the aftermath of World War Two.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: For the rise of the State of Israel three cheers five affability no it doesn't demand too much of its participants it doesn't ask for any great show of cultural literacy or ritual proficiency it's kind of easy peasy.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Six it's a grassroots phenomenon it's not mandated from the top down with john here all sorts of expectations to light the candles something that people seem to do, Willy nilly.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Seven it's kind of layered there are different opportunities, you could make as much or as little bit as you want, and eight, and I think eight is really the key here it's all about effect it's all about feeling good about being Jewish and I sort of.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: sits well on one shoulders are on one window ledge, quite literally, so I think you know any one of these eight could be mixed and matched you know, much as we mixing that john up up, but I think you know, putting it all together and i'm sure our.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: listeners can reduce other reasons, these are my top eight reasons for why it's it's grown larger you know So what do you think.

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Stephanie Butnick: makes sense Marjorie I I.

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Stephanie Butnick: I like that, by the way, I wrote those down because I do believe there will be a quiz at the end of this right, who can who can remember all eight Marjorie what does that does that sound right Tina I.

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Marjorie Ingall: Was gonna say that was so good, I feel like we're done.

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nice to see everybody.

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Eight minute long event.

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Marjorie Ingall: Yes, that works for me um I also think that, as we use have become more and more as we think of ourselves less and less as immigrants, and more and more as Americans.

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Marjorie Ingall: And you know what jenna alluded to about our child centric culture, the notion of being left out has become so horrifying to particularly, I think, to parents worrying that their children are not feeling centered in whatever narrative is currently happening.

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Marjorie Ingall: But I think in general, I think.

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Marjorie Ingall: We live in a sort of what about me culture and.

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Marjorie Ingall: You know, it has made a very minor holiday get.

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Marjorie Ingall: Okay, we had a metaphor ready i'm going to go for another one puffed up like a lovely surf gunny off.

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Marjorie Ingall: Loading in.

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oil.

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Stephanie Butnick: So, like the jelly at the Center would be like the core of the holiday and then like the sugary access is.

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Marjorie Ingall: What I think we would argue about what the jelly is like what is the core of this holiday um you know you could this is more probably more jenna's a field than mine but what what exactly is hanukkah what theoretically, are we celebrate right.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: So there are all sorts of theories about that and then some actually not quite so pleasant if you dig deep enough but what's fascinating is how.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: somewhere along the line has got transmogrified into something that's.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: friendly and child centered and pleasant and domestic and all bound up with family, but if you think about the story that that's is that the heart.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: is really kind of about fragmentation and fighting over the truth and who's notion of Community will prevail and it's about resistance resistance and resilience is very weighty at its heart, which perhaps might explain why it language for a while it is.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Very difficult holiday actually an end so how miraculously within the context of America it got puffed up, as you say it got predefined identified.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: And you know I don't know to respond to janine comment, whether it's a matter of being assimilated or not assimilated it's just part and parcel of the process by which jewishness and Judaism becomes modernized or a postmodern.

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Marjorie Ingall: I mean, I do feel like there's an interesting opportunity to talk about it as a to be assimilated or not to be assimilated holiday, you know this is based on this notion of the maccabees this small band of people.

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Marjorie Ingall: You know the way it is simplified for children's books is they fought against the bad Assyrian Greeks.

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Marjorie Ingall: And they were this mighty little band, and the bad people destroyed the temple and then we get into the miracle part which is a different.

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Marjorie Ingall: uh you know we get out because this is this is this is historically based, this is not in the Torah, this is a late holiday I as somebody.

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Marjorie Ingall: who went to orthodox day school until eighth grade i'm constantly finding out i'm fascinated to find out what we have history for.

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Marjorie Ingall: And this is one of those holidays, when we got we have a lot of history.

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Marjorie Ingall: So you, we also have you know Jews fighting against other Jews, the people who were assimilation as versus those who weren't and who might have possibly you know um you know usurped a leadership roles that they shouldn't have had you have this total as jenna used I like the word fragmentation.

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Marjorie Ingall: there's a lot of ugly and here's Jews killing other Jews in this story right right.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: We lose sight of that happily.

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Marjorie Ingall: Week.

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Marjorie Ingall: we've chosen to make it la la la Santa Claus holiday right.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: But that says something about us, it says something about the plasticity of tradition, it says something about our.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: openness to the larger environment again whether you want to call that a simulation is or openness to the larger environment and it just I mean if you step back and you really think long and hard it's it's really remarkable that here we are, wherever we are stephanie.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Celebrating something that happened.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: aeons ago millennia ago and having this conversation about.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: its relevance and whether it's a boy and holiday or a sobering holiday and there's something quite without sounding unduly rabbinic or pollyanna ish something quite remarkable I think about that and that speaks, I think, to.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: To the jelly at the heart, which is its resilience in a different way it's it's adaptability, sometimes, of course, is i'm sure we'll discuss the adaptability bends too far in the wrong direction but.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: When what was the word we use the other day undergirded sufficiently perhaps it it bends in quite the right direction and kind of leave it there, for the time being yeah.

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Stephanie Butnick: You know.

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Marjorie Ingall: an anonymous question about does it celebrate freedom of religion, I like that, as a narrative, but I think that is arguable about whether that's what.

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Marjorie Ingall: Actually, the holiday was about because you have some people you had people who.

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Marjorie Ingall: Who viewed their Judaism differently, and those who were more acculturated and those who were more isolationist and you could argue fundamentalist so.

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Marjorie Ingall: I think that the fact that there are so many possible interpretations is really interesting and the fact we do have an opportunity I think here.

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Marjorie Ingall: To talk about how this holiday can mean so many different things to so many different people if we choose to look at this combination of history and culture and social history that it's all really interesting.

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Stephanie Butnick: You know jenna one of your eight candlesticks of wisdom.

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Stephanie Butnick: Your tapers of wizard was this.

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Stephanie Butnick: Accident of timing that because it was so generally closely aligned with Christmas, it became sort of blew up into this this bigger thing.

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Stephanie Butnick: that's really interesting because this year, you know we're almost done with hanukkah the Christmas music has started but Christmas is actually not for another few weeks and so.

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Stephanie Butnick: How did we I think this, I want to say that this year is different from as they you know all other years I think things are, I think people are contemplating hanukkah almost in a different way, because.

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Stephanie Butnick: We have like a tiny GASP of air before we go fully into Christmas right like the lights are starting to go up but we're we were sort of able in at least in my experience to have hanukkah on its own and to sort of decouple it from the larger create Christmas narrative and.

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Stephanie Butnick: I think that to me was a relief like we could sort of all take a moment in this larger moment where I think a lot of Jews.

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Stephanie Butnick: are taking stock of their own Judaism right, what do they want to be doing within the postpaid I think.

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Stephanie Butnick: Starting with that first pass over this will be a question at some point, by the way, i'm just giving my giving my my my theory, starting with the first Passover of pandemic 2020 I think people.

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Stephanie Butnick: started making that that I did grassroots people said, you know i'm not going to the seder i've gone to every year of my life i'm not.

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Stephanie Butnick: going to bobby's house i'm not going to the place, I always go, what do I want to make of this, and so now we're 200 goes in and also hanukkah separate from Christmas, so I mean.

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Stephanie Butnick: What, what do you think we are considering differently this year, now that we're out of the shadow yeah Marjorie please.

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Marjorie Ingall: um one thing I really love about Judaism, is the fact that it is such a home based religion that you know, while certainly rabbis and religious leaders are very important, so much of what we do as Jews can be done at home without a without a boss figure and I just remember.

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Marjorie Ingall: After you know Passover and pandemic number one I was really weepy and sad about not being able to have the Passover that I wanted to have.

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Marjorie Ingall: um and um I think already by hanukkah I was starting see like Okay, this is the new normal but also i'm kinda tends to be this cozy more candlelit thing and home, I never was.

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Marjorie Ingall: You know because I wasn't a big data, I never did the maximal you know Jewish I never did the big conical party kind of a thing and hunkering down at home with children, you know.

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Marjorie Ingall: I think the pandemic made us even more hearth based you know than we ever were before and I think as a lot of us were making our sourdough bread and stuff like that we were experimenting in the kitchen more and more, and that has been a nice thing for hanukkah like that also you know.

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Marjorie Ingall: Our lives are pretty much in front of a screen so being able to Google other cultures, you know what do they fry as opposed to just lucky's and yellow and.

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Marjorie Ingall: Can we try, you know, a you know, a Greek dessert can we, and I feel like it has been I don't want to romanticize too much, but it does feel like a little bit of a golden glow a candle lit nice thing, maybe also because we're sort of seeing a way out of the pandemic I don't know.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Nice, I also think that that.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: The the pandemic made us realize the value of things that we might not have otherwise considered that also sounds kind of sappy and sentimental sentimental, but I think just the season and that.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: The realization of of what's at stake in both the positive and a negative sense has impacted as profoundly and then of course there's the elephant in the room, which is the.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: recruit destined for the stunning reproduce essence of anti Semitism which makes us hunker down and other ways and take stock in other ways, so I think the combo.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: is really kind of the content donation to use a $50 word of these forces.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: really has made clinical do my little larger, it is, I agree with these definitely stephanie enjoying more breathing room at the moment because it is.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: untethered from from it's Big Brother which is Christmas so there's more opportunity to look at its on its own terms and then there's also the political sphere where you have the.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Second, hate that term, but the vice presidential family.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Publicly laying claim to their identity and having a hanukkah to do at the White House and.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Making a lot of noise about how important this is to them as a family and, as a country, and as a nation and on and on and on, so I think the confluence of all these factors makes hanukkah kind of stand a little taller on its own eight nights and not constantly have to answer.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: To Christmas, as you wrote in that wonderful wash post piece about how it's so important.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: For hanukkah to feel that it's hanukkah that it has an integrity of vitality and arsenal repertoire all of its own and it doesn't need constantly to borrow from the external world or from a larger world to.

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Stephanie Butnick: To stand tall no I think you're right, I mean, I think this year, I mean so that was the this op ED that me and my two on orthodox podcast co host wrote, which I think is titled like don't call it Jewish Christmas like don't don't bring hanukkah.

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Stephanie Butnick: Oh, I froze i'm sorry guys.

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Marjorie Ingall: Oh, I you're working for me.

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Stephanie Butnick: Okay, I just had a blip blip blip they'll have like a miracle or wi fi in our life, I made it through all eight I don't know.

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Stephanie Butnick: You know I think this year, there is a push against like stop calling this stop stop trying to make this Jewish person so i've been seeing it a lot of places I think one of the ways we've been seeing it is in this.

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Stephanie Butnick: version there's a piece in the New York Times about like the bad hanukkah merge that you go into walmart and you see like the oil to the world pillow and the love live love laugh lot goes things and.

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Stephanie Butnick: there's sort of people who were saying we don't want this actually the point of hanukkah and you talked about this before 10 at the point of hanukkah is.

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Stephanie Butnick: was a fight against assimilation and so to suddenly be seeing like read the words in blue and white that's sort of feels I think it feels a little wrong to people and this year for some reason I think it's that confluence of.

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Stephanie Butnick: identity and culture, like all these things that are happening in a moment, and say we actually don't I don't necessarily know that I want that.

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Stephanie Butnick: or I want that to be how how hanukkah is perceiving and that's why we're here talking today right trying to investigate what it is that that makes hanukkah unique or.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: That what makes it unique for us, I went back and took them and I look at some you know, the equivalent of of how to be Jewish guidebooks and manuals from the the early 20th century and there they jump through hoops trying so hard to.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Essentially, Christian eyes on a bench and make it clear that it has, I actually came across quotes that spoke of hanukkah in terms of mirth and cheer which are exactly.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: To come sensory words that are usually spring to one snips and they should no reason not but they've done.

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Marjorie Ingall: Judaism, in general, not.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Just in general in general Okay, thank you.

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Stephanie Butnick: know from Earth.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Air and sarcasm, but not from earth maybe we ought to, but in any event, the point was that the vocabulary and the activities that were being.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: That that the readers of these household how to be Jewish guy it's we're being exposed to was all about the symmetry between are the.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: ways in which hanukkah lent itself to being a kind of Jewish Christmas and So here we are 100 years later, pushing back against that and trying to argue.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: In some instances, for the integrity of this holiday on its own terms and for its strange qualities and I know that that Marjorie and I have spoken and Marjorie certainly has written a lot about the.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: The counter cultural the oppositional nature of Judaism, how it doesn't quite have to march in lockstep and that's kind of the beauty of it all, and perhaps now.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: that's moving from being largely a rhetorical gesture into something that's really being performed and acted on that.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: This culture speaks on its own terms it doesn't need all these helping hands and that there's enough going on internally for it should be as engaging as it possibly could be.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: So thinking and i'd love to know your your response to this, you know we're living in a very.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Where we had curious to find this out in a couple of years time, but my sense is that for a number of years we're living in a kind of post denominational Jewish world.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Where there's a lot of picking and choosing and that things that wants to find someone is orthodox is now open to somebody who is not and.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: there's a lot of cross pollinate pollination and so kind of really seems to me to be the perfect post denominational holiday or occasion because it lends itself.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: To so many different kinds of opportunities iterations you can go really deep, you can go shallow you can do this, you can do that, and so there's a kind of latitude towards informatica.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: That, at least, we know accentuate that speaks to this.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Flexible post denominational I choose a little from here i'll choose a little from their moment, what do you think about that is that putting too fine a point on it, do you think.

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Marjorie Ingall: No um I also think you know.

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Marjorie Ingall: it's a reflection of our capitalist society that you know I think about.

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Marjorie Ingall: As somebody who writes a lot about Jewish children's literature.

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Marjorie Ingall: How I you know there, there are two subjects that are people Well now, I would say three subjects that appear over and over and over again in Jewish children's books.

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Marjorie Ingall: Mostly picture books.

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Marjorie Ingall: Holocaust hanukkah and now Ruth Bader Ginsburg.

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Marjorie Ingall: And I yearn for books about other Jewish holidays, but December is when people by presence with again, which makes it interesting this one.

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Marjorie Ingall: It feels almost lovely that it came earlier this year that we didn't have to, I have a lot of sympathy for parents of small children, parents of children who go to pub to diverse public schools and parents who are are in interfaith relationships, you know how do you.

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Marjorie Ingall: Cut it's not just hanukkah but how do you.

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Marjorie Ingall: You know.

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Marjorie Ingall: You have to teach children to.

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Marjorie Ingall: Accept not being the majority culture, I shouldn't say have to um my choice would be you know we don't get the hanukkah Bush, you know we don't get the wreath of the blue, and white balls.

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Marjorie Ingall: But it's very hanukkah is not Christmas and when people say you know, like.

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Marjorie Ingall: Have kids enjoy what hanukkah is yes to a degree, but I also think it's okay for kids to let kids feel.

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Marjorie Ingall: sad about being left out, and we don't have a culture that lets children feel sad and sit with negative feelings and I think that that is an important thing to learn as an adult and there can be pride in okay i'm not like everybody else.

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Marjorie Ingall: But there's a book that I love that a lot of Jewish.

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Marjorie Ingall: Librarians and critics don't love a picture book called dear Santa love Rachel rosenstein, which is about a little Jewish girl who keeps wanting Santa to come to her house and keeps wanting to put out cookies and keep and her parents are like nope we don't we don't have Santa and.

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Marjorie Ingall: She keeps thinking that if she just works hard enough she can get Center to come and her parents do exactly what they're supposed to do, which is like you know we have lots of cool stuff too.

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Marjorie Ingall: But it's realistic to for kids to maybe feel a little bad and, at the end of the book what she does is she goes out for Chinese food.

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Marjorie Ingall: and her Muslim friends from school and her Hindu friends from school are also in the in the same restaurant and it's Nice and it's fun.

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Marjorie Ingall: But there's this tiny hint of but it's not Christmas, and I think that is such a good message you know to deal with it it's good it's okay and yeah, of course, we can also I mean dreidel is awesome the.

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Marjorie Ingall: You know, getting to light candles when you're a little kid you know, using that as an opportunity to do the first time, which is the plot of the new all the kind family.

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Marjorie Ingall: picture book which I wanted to hate and do not think it's great I think it's wonderful about little dirty and her desire to be a big kid that is things that children wrestle with it has this real feeling of authenticity, as opposed to the pollyanna ISM you mentioned earlier.

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Marjorie Ingall: I don't know where i'm going with this.

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Stephanie Butnick: We don't want that book is by amanda pete right.

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Stephanie Butnick: yeah Do you wish, after some European.

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Marjorie Ingall: Jewish actress men pete.

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Marjorie Ingall: Who also produced that awesome the chair the thing about academia and.

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Marjorie Ingall: i'm not and it's based on an incident that happened at.

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Marjorie Ingall: Friends school, which she attended.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: There you go.

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Marjorie Ingall: fun trivia.

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Stephanie Butnick: I do think, though, there is, I mean hanukkah is a very it's like a child centric holiday and a lot of ways right a lot of people's you know talking about material culture, a lot of families menorahs are the ones that you made in.

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Stephanie Butnick: Like kindle you know you make them in Hebrew school and you keep them your whole life, I mean there's something very.

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Stephanie Butnick: Child friendly about the holiday right it's it's, as you said, Marjorie at home base you don't have to i'm sure people there are ways to incorporate synagogue she'll going but it's it's.

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Stephanie Butnick: You have some food you like the candles you put it in the window, or you know, I think that there's something really easy and palatable palatable about it.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: He explains why it's taken all that was my I forget which number on my trusty little list but that's why.

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Stephanie Butnick: affability right.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: affability or ease or access and it's not something that requires huge amount of knowledge to.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: maneuver around you know how hard is it's not terribly hard um that's, not to say that that's all that I would not gain in complexity, if people were to pay a little bit more attention to its.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Its historicity or just in other dimensions or delve into a particular text about time ago yeah that's that'd be fine too, but that's not going to happen anytime soon so.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Whatever it presents it presents well and it is you know I hate to say this, but it is what it is and that's the joy of it, you know.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: In many of my writings, particularly for tablet i've always made a case for for the humble and the kind of sweet and do limited, and I think in a way that's kind of what.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Marjorie you're getting at to couching it more and emotional terms but but being Jewish is different, and it has a different range of emotions different set of responsibilities.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Different treasures different goodies and and that's just fine that is as it ought to be in that sometimes we try to sell hard to make it into something that it's not.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: You kind of lose sight of that which it is, and so, for me the sweetness and the simplicity, with the seeming simplicity it's just you know eight candles and a lumpy kind of thing that some kid made on paper school.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: is maybe i'm just getting old at this point and and these things tend to have a larger resonance perhaps also because of the pandemic and the loss of life and everything else that goes along with that constriction, but I just think there's something.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Valuable in, but it is and that efforts to make it into more than the sum of its parts are almost due to fail because they don't they don't quite sit right yeah.

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Marjorie Ingall: Someone made.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: A speech.

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Marjorie Ingall: Someone said earlier in the chat something about even hearing as a child Christian families to talking about the over commercialization of Christmas, and I think that's true um, but I also think that the you know.

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Marjorie Ingall: i'm not talking about the birth of Jesus is a a way to still have you know, a shopping oriented capitalist holiday, that is, you know it's sort of you know well, Santa.

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Marjorie Ingall: Non denominational it's just good cheer it's a holiday celebrating you know what did we say, besides good cheer I can think of what the other, you know words.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: happy.

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Happy holidays.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Merry merry merry merry.

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Stephanie Butnick: Well, wrote all those songs for.

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Christmas.

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Marjorie Ingall: Exactly, and the fact that use wrote so many I mean that's something that jenna can speak to, but the huge history of Jews writing a hanukkah songs.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: In Eastern.

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Marjorie Ingall: In tin pan alley where a tablet is um I was just I did want to share just a little anecdote about my kids I really sweated whether to send my kids today school or not, and I did wind up sending them to public school and.

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Marjorie Ingall: One I had a lot of angst an auditor about it.

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Marjorie Ingall: Early on, but one of the worst moments was a kid in my daughter josie kindergarten saying you're Jewish I thought you were normal.

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Marjorie Ingall: And not meaning it as an insult, just like oh you're so alien and then a the next year.

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Marjorie Ingall: Her absolutely lovely teacher sent him a note saying, would it be okay if we read the polar express in class which is.

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Marjorie Ingall: You know, a beautifully illustrated Chris panels for children's book that also became a crappy movie but a really beautiful book.

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Marjorie Ingall: But it has Center and he's like it's not really Christian because it's just Santa it's not like anything about Christianity and.

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Marjorie Ingall: I wrote and Muslim parent wrote saying you know we're not comfortable but josie cried when I told her that I was writing this note, because she wanted to be normal you know she was like, why are you calling attention to me.

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Marjorie Ingall: So I thought.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: You know just saying.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: How did, how did you get out of that one.

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Marjorie Ingall: I didn't get out of it, I said I understand that.

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Marjorie Ingall: This is really hard for you, but we live in a We live in a country that, theoretically values, the separation of church and state.

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Marjorie Ingall: And I would be perfectly happy if there were you know you know because josie was all like well why at domino's in my class and i'd be like i'd be happy if there were no symbols at all in your class.

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Marjorie Ingall: And you know I think you kind of gotta go with the ever present doll understand better when you're older even so.

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Stephanie Butnick: So walk us through you know how we got to this is this is Edith here and we just heard from about margins children, you know how did we get to this place, can you walk us through how.

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Stephanie Butnick: You got a great piece about this entitlement magazine which city can hopefully drop in the chat basically How did we get get could just walk us through some of the more specifics of of of hanukkah in America, historically, if you don't mind.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Can I do that with my my eight tidy little thing.

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Stephanie Butnick: Absolutely, is what we want, we want.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: More war.

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Stephanie Butnick: We want messiness.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: This unit sits on.

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Stephanie Butnick: Bringing your baby.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: yeah.

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Stephanie Butnick: In between it's not messy.

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Stephanie Butnick: What real.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Look, I think the other, a lot of stakeholders and actors there's the public school is the politicians there's the marketplace, I think, probably the marketplace.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: plays to have to use part which reminds me I wanted just to respond by way of a digression to marjorie's comment that Christmas also underwent a huge metamorphosis in this country Christmas to has become something that.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: People in the mid 80s mid 19th century would never quite have envisioned it becoming and so all holidays all rituals lend themselves to these processes of commercialization and reinterpretation.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: It just seems sometimes to be a little bit more cujo in the case of minority religion so um you know, I think that they're all of these cultural custodians involved to are pressing home the message of.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: How the Day celebration, and how it's become a way to express one's fidelity to America one sense of promise and bounty and it's really hard to disentangle one factor to another but there's clearly.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Cultural pressure to to render Christmas larger than the sum of abbott's 12 nights and concomitantly to try and get hanukkah to measure up and whether it's.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: The public schools, whether it's writers like grace paley i'm always reminded and love every year to read her story the loudest voice.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: in which a Jewish kid surely is asked to to play Jesus because, not because of any amelia terrorist efforts but because she has the loudest voice in the class.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: she's a belter and her parents are immigrant parents are absolutely flummox maybe a little bit pleased with this too.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: But don't quite know how to respond to this complimentary not quite sure it's a compliment and the story doesn't quite resolve, which is the point these things don't quite neatly resolve but.

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Marjorie Ingall: I love not.

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Marjorie Ingall: You know not neatly resolving I think.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Like.

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Marjorie Ingall: You see that as human beings, and we seek that as shoes and um I think that that's an absolutely you know that liminal place of.

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Marjorie Ingall: is a really fine place to be and has honestly served us well as Jews through all of history, being in this place to question.

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Marjorie Ingall: And being in a religion that has frequently been a dialogic religion and frequently been the two Jews three synagogues religion, I think that is healthy.

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Marjorie Ingall: For all of us and the respect of difference is, I think a really important thing one thing, but as you were talking, one thing I absolutely love about your work is you often look at America through.

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Marjorie Ingall: Contemporary historical sources that are off I don't want to say this in a dismissive way, but sometimes i've been nice other people's notice like women's fashion stuff and one of the things I love is you look at food and.

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Marjorie Ingall: You mentioned in that piece that was put up the fig about that horrible mid century menorah recipe.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: And I think it's time to light salad or menorah salad or those.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: maccabees you know you know I read that sentence and then I cringe afterwards I think what is it about the miniaturization of the mighty maccabees what's going on there, and that you actually eat them.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: But then i'm reminded that we could eat Santa Claus to and gingerbread thing there's something about consuming cultures.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: You know the anthropology literally understand there's just somebody.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Like fun fun and you know, to get back to stephanie's question and around about way to respond to you Marjorie I think that one of the things that makes the study of American jury so much fun so challenging.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: is precisely that the ingredient of fun rather than responsibility and if I had to choose that one one trajectory that runs throughout.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: As a kind of a counter narrative it's the efforts on the part of the grassroots largely women housewives, who are not quite as lettered.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: As as they watch it have been now that's changed but back in the day they didn't have that many opportunities that no opportunities.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: For cultural literacy and so they relied a lot on the domestic arts and the role of gesture to put things for it and what they what they promoted with the idea of jewishness is fun fun.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Which isn't exactly a concept that lives comfortably given our history and somehow I think there's a sea change.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: with America that that America also places a premium on fun and on pleasure and bounty and abundance I know i'm branching in a lot of things here, but I think that's the point that there's an effort to to transform Judaism into something that's weighty and heavy and.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: full of responsibility and to something that's lifts the spirits and that could be.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: pleasurable and light hearted and that's kind of 180 degree turn whether that's good for the Jews or bad for the Jews i'll leave that for another panel to reckon with, but it seems to me that if we were to kind of.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Reduce.

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hanukkah.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: fun and food, food, yes, food.

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Marjorie Ingall: is number one.

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Marjorie Ingall: You know, we are in an era of being a little bit more aware of difference and celebrate story of difference.

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Marjorie Ingall: i'm certainly in children's books which i'm particularly interested in there's a whole we need diverse books movement which one might argue has not been quite as embracing of Jews, as it should be.

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Marjorie Ingall: regardless, I think that we are in a position i'm seeing in Jewish children's literature so much more awareness of Sephardic stories of mizrahi stories and certainly when.

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Marjorie Ingall: You know, we asked a question in the chat about food in general is a you know I love that people are seeking to move beyond the ashkenazi.

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Marjorie Ingall: recipes and Wayne also asked about what do we think of these you know new fangled lackeys and it's funny because I have very hostile feelings towards new fangled almost I do not agree with chocolate homeless, I think it is an abomination unto the Lord.

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Marjorie Ingall: But I love I shared a picture on my little video on my Facebook, the other day of saying that everybody loves Joe nathan's sweet curried sweet potato, like us, which is true and we saw my cat stealing one off of the platter and eating it.

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Marjorie Ingall: So I I am fine I don't know why, but I didn't know why one.

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Marjorie Ingall: it's not a traditional lackeys is just a, and I say lucky, and my children make fun of me because their New York children and i'm Boston person in Boston.

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Stephanie Butnick: People yeah where does lucky come from I feel like if you're from like Chicago there's like a midwestern ish thing we're lucky the food network star molly gay says lucky on her show yeah.

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Marjorie Ingall: or like where does that come from.

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Stephanie Butnick: I love it.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: i'm not sure you know, there was a time people would call Hello.

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Marjorie Ingall: holly my my elderly relative Sally i'm sorry so.

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Marjorie Ingall: I am Okay, you know the holiday is about frame things it's about the oil like that's the tradition, you know it's not it's I mean it's not a lot of tradition but i'm just put anything in oil i'm good with that I love.

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Marjorie Ingall: And it's not offensive like you know chocolate homeless just call it, putting.

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Marjorie Ingall: People what's going on.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: In the back to the miniature maccabees and tuna fish and all these foods in the near tuna fish as as the mcafee I don't know it's quite a stretch but fun or cottage cheese and banana no.

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Marjorie Ingall: I love that sort of you can look at these hadassah cookbooks and she'll cookbooks through you know, starting from the you know I think some of the earliest ones are.

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Marjorie Ingall: 1880s 18 days and.

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Marjorie Ingall: Then you really see.

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Marjorie Ingall: Our relationship with the larger culture reflected, you know I found the some sort of a lot of these southern cookbooks hilarious because they're.

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Marjorie Ingall: they're sitting on cookbooks and they're full of pork recipes because you know that's that was there, you know, values and then everything was hawaiian which you know basically put a pineapple on it.

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Marjorie Ingall: anyway.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: We digress.

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Stephanie Butnick: what's the role of rabbis, and all this we've talked about consumerism we've talked about the.

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Stephanie Butnick: Good mash up of.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Such a big.

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Stephanie Butnick: Are there, there must have been rabbis who were saying you know let's get the hanukkah pad let's get the hanukkah song and the Christmas pageant.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: About that there are rabbis saying let's get the hanukkah menorah lit boys and girls, you know I think there's a moment in time, where it.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: kind of gets soldered in the breach rather than the observance and I found in my travels lots of fancy rabbis you know it largely in the Grand reform temples exhorting their congregants to.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: One quote light hanukkah candles and new, modern Israelites you know that kind of lofty rhetoric which suggests that they're not.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Or that they don't have the the ritual paraphernalia or it somehow lost its its luster and then, with the arrival of Eastern European Jews.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: hanukkah becomes something that they carry with but it's not a major deal, so you know, putting it all together, we owe a great thanks to America visits in America.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: That hanukkah really comes into its own as a major moment on the Jewish calendar, maybe for the wrong reasons, but it does come into its own in every single aspect, whether it's gastronomic or it's gift giving or it's playful and that's something i'm not quite sure what but it says something.

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Marjorie Ingall: I wanted to answer one of the questions about you know someone saying that I was saying don't allow anything in classrooms and i'm not saying that i'm a don't allow religious symbols, what I am saying is.

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Marjorie Ingall: That you know there's a term hidden curriculum, which is the stuff that we learned that isn't explicit in school, and I want discussion, I want you know what what are what that teacher who I loved ended up doing was having.

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Marjorie Ingall: My mom come in to talk about hanukkah have karen's mom come in to talk about Muslim traditions and um you know my when my kids were little, and they would come home with Christmas coloring sheets I hated that because there was no.

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Marjorie Ingall: You know.

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Marjorie Ingall: We are people who talk and who question and I don't want just decorations I want conversations.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: that's a really good sentence.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: sentence.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: sentence we don't like decoration it should be our motto going forward.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Yes, maccabees we don't want decoration we want conversation.

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Marjorie Ingall: Although I also.

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Marjorie Ingall: I also loved I mean you and I both also love decoration and fashion and all that and your your look at sort of the evolving.

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Marjorie Ingall: Kentucky is so interesting and how you know you sort of had these kitschy you know Jewish ones like supposed to look like ancient treasures from the Holy Land, and then you have these mid century gorgeous Mrs and I think it's so funny because I was just in the Jonathan Adler.

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Marjorie Ingall: flagship store on the upper East side.

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Marjorie Ingall: and his mid century menorahs are just gloriously gorgeous and I feel like you know we're watching you watch fashion happen through what the menorahs look like you could probably look it up an aura and say.

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Marjorie Ingall: and say no, when this was made.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Right and and what it signified so you know we now take to bait to be the kitschy and kind of like insufferably you know that patent needed green where was really thought to be.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: All the rage and quite beautiful baby there might.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: bring her back.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: This is hers.

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Stephanie Butnick: And so, this is our Jonathan other menorah and.

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Stephanie Butnick: The thing about it is that you almost wouldn't like it's very obviously a menorah but it's also.

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Stephanie Butnick: This beautiful item, I have several.

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Stephanie Butnick: hundred kiya out of my shelf right now.

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Stephanie Butnick: And I think that's part of the conversation right like, and this is beautiful, this is a beautiful object and and I think you know Jenny we've had you on an Orthodox to talk about sort of like the.

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Stephanie Butnick: grassy like So what we think of when we think of judaica and I think that the menorah in hanukkah like it's such an interesting way to track, can you.

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Stephanie Butnick: talk a little bit about that psl sort of.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Water just a sentence.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Yes, we are the track changes and position ality and, and so the popularity of the pattern fascinated green where which we now find a little bit cringe inducing was a way to kind of shore up one's relationship to Israel, and it was both modern and it's also seemingly old copper being.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: A material that was associated with some kind of biblical provenance, so it seemed to dance it all sorts of weddings you know both modality and antiquity, and then you had the chromium stuff which I just.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: recently wrote about that's what you've been talking about so chromium was that kind of photos silver that was inexpensive and never tarnished and always clean, or so we were told.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: And that lends itself to more sleek and modern forms and then you have the 10 stuff from the Jewish museum which.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: reflected the economics people couldn't afford most Eastern European Jews could not afford, something that was made out of silver and the other chromium was have to believe in anyone's I at the time, so.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: They would work with what they had, which was Chan or lead and see that reflects a particular economic position now you have.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: George Jensen minnow road, and you have Jonathan Adler so we're in a different relationship in terms of our affluence and are heightened sense of.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: aesthetics and taste from this, so all of this can be tracked along the spine of the honey PM would make for a really great exhibit and i'm thinking to of the extraordinary Nokia that are in the Jewish museums collections that.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Are the handiwork of a wide range of audiences that at times defy anybody to kind of immediately identify them as as a Nokia, but that's the point.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: they're made out of rubber they're made out of all sorts of materials and that to underscores I think what is really at the heart of this holiday and that it's plus to city.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: and its adaptability and the way it lends itself to not only lively discussion, but to animated decoration as well.

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Stephanie Butnick: and

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Stephanie Butnick: So oh yes cried up because there is a great question who's someone who's asking if hanukkah is a fight against the simulation, what do you think of the drive thru hanukkah light show in Cincinnati which i've actually never heard of but I.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Imagine.

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Stephanie Butnick: That don't like like always like Oh, do you know, do you know from this Marjorie.

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Marjorie Ingall: No, but my first reaction is oh my God, I want to see because.

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Stephanie Butnick: it's you know I feel like you usually know the town, the street in the town to go that has the great you know every there's one of us every city every town has the place to go for the really good Christmas lights.

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Stephanie Butnick: What i'm guessing is that Cincinnati has some kind of great analog of blue and white lights and I think this is interesting, you know, I have a colleague who has a big.

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Stephanie Butnick: hanukkah inflatable situation on her front lawn because she's like why don't I why can't I have this why, why should my kids now get this what their neighbors have for for Christmas, so I think that.

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Stephanie Butnick: There is something kind of amazing about this i'm curious where do you stand on like blue and white lights Marjorie please.

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Marjorie Ingall: um it's so funny one of the most interesting I did want to before we leave I did want to have the opportunity to recommend some children's you have.

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Marjorie Ingall: hanukkah but a new one just published like this month is called red and green and blue and white.

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Marjorie Ingall: And it is about a street, that is all decorated for Christmas and one family has a menorah in the window and something some kind of blue and white decoration and someone throws a brick and it's about the little boy feeling anxious about um.

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Marjorie Ingall: He doesn't know if he wants to show a menorah anymore, or how many blue and white anymore, and his friend is Christian friend across the street um.

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Marjorie Ingall: puts up a little sign that says for Isaac and I forget if she put what What if they put something else in the window, but I thought it was such an interesting.

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Marjorie Ingall: Look at what it means to grow up in a multicultural street, and I do have this feeling of fondness when I walk around and Decker heights, which is a place here that has been absolutely you know.

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Marjorie Ingall: exuberant, shall we say, Christmas lights that there's always some climate there's always like to hanukkah houses and it's it's really.

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Marjorie Ingall: interesting and I feel like i'm asking me to say you know, is it good or bad is reductive um you know my kids what we did was we we never had any.

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Marjorie Ingall: Any christmasy March, but we could go to friends houses and eat their cookies and help them decorate their tree um I feel like you know saying tell me this is bad is not necessarily helpful.

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Stephanie Butnick: There okay so.

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Stephanie Butnick: What do you think oh yeah.

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Marjorie Ingall: yeah oh.

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Marjorie Ingall: The books.

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Marjorie Ingall: The books that I absolutely love the number one best clinical book that will ever exist in the history of the universe.

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Marjorie Ingall: As i've written in tablet multiple times is herschel and Chanukah violence by Eric kimmel.

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Marjorie Ingall: Which is a folk like a meetup folktale it is terrifying it has amazing art, it is so weird and interesting and it is about Community, and it is a real adventurous storytelling because kids deserve good art as well that you know children's literature, should not be just didactic.

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Marjorie Ingall: The other favorite is like honestly this all the kind of family hanukkah is so good, and I so was cranky about them, you know about Sydney taylor's a state, allowing them to do up.

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Marjorie Ingall: All the kind of family picture book How dare they what kind of puts us that they did an amazing amazing amazing job um What else do I really like.

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Marjorie Ingall: I feel like we often settle for crappy art for kids and we shouldn't have to do that, you can go through a lot of my.

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Marjorie Ingall: Previous tablet columns about what Jewish children's books, I think, are great I don't also don't think you know, give me more books about other holidays, you know make again with the home based religion let's uh let's have a lot more excellent pass off.

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Marjorie Ingall: You know rushing on Yom Kippur war and sukkot how bad too.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Bad let's hear it for 2%.

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Marjorie Ingall: We actually have some good Jewish bought books, because of the interest in environmentalism that people have now that there's been a raft of actually oddly board books for little kids they're a bunch of did to push blackboard books.

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Stephanie Butnick: jenna.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: good or bad.

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Why.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: I don't do that I don't do that I just kind of try and take the measure of it and reckoned with it and then try and figure out what it tells us and I leave it to the rabbi's and the.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: sociologists to pronounce you know i'm I like to pronounce historically rather than coterminous Lee because I don't know I don't know you know I say all the time that.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: i'm really a whiz at predicting the past, you know I don't have any particular skill when it comes to predicting the President and I stand by that I mean I think if you were to ask me if I were around in the 50s 60s.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: to comment on what was coming down the Pike I would have been absolutely flabbergasted now it's part of our.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: of our of our communal property, so you just never know what's coming down the Pike and how to interpret it and that which seems rather than the trade turns out to be.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Rather routine at a certain point in time let's just say that that jewishness is always in flux and changing and adaptable and three cheers or what's the equivalent of three cheers or a hanukkah cheer that we.

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Stephanie Butnick: At 188 or ATM.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: at whatever you want.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: A dog or something in favor of that.

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Stephanie Butnick: question for us.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: changeability and integrity, so Marjorie had a conversation and no minimum let's hear it for conversation so i'm all for plus just city, adaptability and.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: A little jelly of historicity epicenter.

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Stephanie Butnick: love it, and so, since we are approaching, you know the last evenings of of hanukkah do either of you have a favorite ritual or custom or tradition that you do for hanukkah you look forward to each year, or you a new one, you took on this year.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: I polished Nokia, which I haven't been a long time, we have a very beautiful silver Nokia that was part of my my husband's.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Family that's come down through the ages and it's very splendid that's like the most splendidly it's not me at all in terms of my taste, but I love the historicity of it and I love that it's come down through the ages and I love that.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: that's our job collectively because it's quite a huge thing to figure out how to Polish it each year so that was my great contribution.

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Stephanie Butnick: I like that and did you have enough pot like did you start with just a little bit of Polish.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: No, no, no, we were.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: At we were anticipating so he went online and he bought 18 different kinds of silver Polish and we've been trying different things to.

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Marjorie Ingall: Just to tell you have to give us a recommendation.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Okay, there are lots and then we had to buy like a tab to be able to put the thing in the tab, and so we were very involved in the.

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Marjorie Ingall: night I liked I like science, I like experiments.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: That was very chemistry orient.

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Marjorie Ingall: My face my favorite ritual is always.

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Marjorie Ingall: The raft of social media discussion that always happens about how best to clean off the wax i'm.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: always well if you use oil you don't have that problem right.

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Marjorie Ingall: But if you have cats, they will set themselves.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Oh, I.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: didn't think of that the other ritual we have is that we do a kind of comparison of different kinds of lockers.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: Yes, a locker festival of sorts.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: So run out of steam.

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Marjorie Ingall: used our air fryer for the first time this year, because there was a.

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Marjorie Ingall: piece in in in the Nasir I believe part of my Jewish learning about this is what the air fryer was born for.

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Marjorie Ingall: um it was really good you could make you could make a good um you know it took some trial trial and error to figure out, you know cooking time and he.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: still had to grade all the potatoes know.

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Marjorie Ingall: My my younger kid is in a.

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Marjorie Ingall: An s know botany class and they talked about cooking in one of the things and what is there, what is a traditional recipe, and so I talked about lucky's.

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Marjorie Ingall: And usually I use the food processor, because I told the family stories, I had to do the thing about it doesn't taste good unless there's a little bit of knuckle in it.

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Marjorie Ingall: So I.

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Marjorie Ingall: freaking graded But then when it came time to do the sweet potato lucky's I use the machine.

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Stephanie Butnick: I mean the the hand greeting verse food processor its own.

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Stephanie Butnick: Little.

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Stephanie Butnick: Girls in the dance.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: sounds sort of like serious lemme yeah.

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Jenna Weissman Joselit: back to the museum and we'll discuss the merits of technology.

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Stephanie Butnick: Will debate that tone musically I will say that my I have a new favorite ritual, which is that I have a newborn who, I think.

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Stephanie Butnick: showed up on the zoom because you supposed to be sleeping during this but decided she wanted to be part of the conversation, so you may have seen the top of her head is I tried to keep her out of frame we let the candles together, and I have to say that there was something really, really.

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Stephanie Butnick: Beautiful about this.

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Stephanie Butnick: generate you know this, the door to door this whole thing that we do and and you know Carol has a really nice comment in the chat choose with each candle we light.

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Stephanie Butnick: make a dedication, this is for love another family etc so that's what she does each each candle is sort of have an intention, as we say now, with each candle and I think.

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Stephanie Butnick: There is something beautiful and I think that what this year shows is like there's always something new to consider about hanukkah and i'm grateful to the two of you Marjorie angle generalist and just let for being here with us tonight.

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Stephanie Butnick: As we you know round out a wonderful holidays, a hanukkah season, not a holiday season hanukkah season, and I wanted to thank Sydney for having us as part of the Museum of Jewish heritage.

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Sydney Yaeger (she/her): Now, thank you all so much this was such a great conversation to listen to you all are amazing.

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Sydney Yaeger (she/her): And thank you all so much to everybody who joined us everything we do at the museum is made possible through donor support.

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Sydney Yaeger (she/her): To those of you watching we hope you'll consider making a donation to support the museum or becoming a member and joining us for our upcoming programs, which you can check out in the link in the zoom chat.

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Sydney Yaeger (she/her): Also, as a special hanukkah gift, you are all invited to attend our object spotlight program tomorrow 4pm Eastern time on zoom you can find that link in the zoom chat as well, have a great afternoon, and thank you again for joining us thank.

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Marjorie Ingall: You Thank you so much.