“Nazi Billionaires” Book Talk

This program’s original recording transcript is below. This transcription was created automatically during a live program so may contain inaccurate transcriptions of some words.

Sydney Yaeger (she/her): So hi everyone, my name is Sydney Yaeger and i'm the public programs coordinator at the Museum of Jewish heritage, a living memorial to the Holocaust.

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Sydney Yaeger (she/her): Now, and it's 24th year the museum is committed to the crucial mission of educating our diverse community about Jewish life and heritage, before, during and after the Holocaust.

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Sydney Yaeger (she/her): As part of that mission our programs are meant to illuminate stories of survivors broader histories of hate and anti semitism through time and stories of resistance against injustice.

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Sydney Yaeger (she/her): Today, we will be discussing David young's new book Nazi billionaires which was published just last month we're honored to be joined by David and Greg breeze ackerman.

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Sydney Yaeger (she/her): David is a correspondent in the Middle East, where he writes for the Dutch financial daily.

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Sydney Yaeger (she/her): For the research and writing of Nazi billionaires he reported from Berlin for four years before that he was.

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Sydney Yaeger (she/her): He was a reporter at Bloomberg news in New York, where he wrote about his wealth and billionaire fortunes and an Amsterdam or he wrote a by European banking and finance.

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Sydney Yaeger (she/her): His work has also appeared in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal and Bloomberg business week he was born and raised in Amsterdam and currently lives in Tel Aviv Nazi billionaires is david's first book.

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Sydney Yaeger (she/her): Gregory is a special writer at the Wall Street Journal, where he has written for 20 years he is the author of several books, including the greatest trade ever the behind the scenes story of how john Paulson defied Wall Street and made financial history.

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Sydney Yaeger (she/her): The man who solved the market how Jim simons launched the quiet revolution and, most recently, a shot to save the world the inside story of the life or death race for a coven 19 vaccine.

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Sydney Yaeger (she/her): If you have questions for our speakers during the program please put them in the zoom Q amp a box and we'll get to as many as we can, during the hour Thank you all so much for joining us today and i'm now going to hand things over to Gregory and David.

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Gregory Zuckerman: Good afternoon, everybody i'm assuming everybody can hear us and, yes, Sydney, thank you for the introduction and for hosting.

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Gregory Zuckerman: it's a real honor to be here with David and with everyone it's a appropriate time today is you're not smooth.

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Gregory Zuckerman: Yesterday yama it grown in the last week you on my show on So these are appropriate themes and relevant things to assault and i've i'm thrilled to welcome David those who haven't read the book yet really should it's eye opening a lot of ways.

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Gregory Zuckerman: it's interesting it's fascinating I was gonna say enjoyable but um I don't know if you know inappropriate to say enjoyable by book of with these kind of things, but it is enjoyable in that it teaches and it is also well written, so I encourage everybody to pick up a copy.

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Gregory Zuckerman: I am going to toss some questions at David this afternoon, but we're also going to allow some opportunity for the audience, we have a nice group of people with us this afternoon, so feel free I think in the Q amp a there's a room there and, if I can.

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Gregory Zuckerman: manage it i'll keep an eye out for the Q amp a questions and we'll leave some time at the end.

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Gregory Zuckerman: So thank you again, David and, first I want to talk about the writing process.

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Gregory Zuckerman: Yours was a challenging book in a lot of ways.

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Gregory Zuckerman: Maybe start off with what the biggest challenge was and we'll go from there.

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David de Jong: Well, the biggest challenge about thanks Greg first of all, the biggest challenge certainly was that i'm a native Dutch speaker and writer and I wrote a book in English base on German sources on a topic that's.

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David de Jong: In Germany, particularly very sensitive and extremely secretive.

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David de Jong: So it took me four years, I mean I got the idea, years ago, but it took me four years of researching writing from Berlin to put everything together and, of course, and this is something you've come across New York boarding as well.

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David de Jong: bar one you know, none of the families, I write about in my book or around me i'm talking about family offices family offices lawyers, you know close acquaintances even nobody wants to talk to me.

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David de Jong: To record around it.

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Gregory Zuckerman: I would guess what that where they're not individual members of these families that felt the need to discuss these important issues, did you not find any of them was it was it on uniform like that.

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David de Jong: No, I found one added the grandson of feet age flick guard rudel sick or, better known as mk flick quite a.

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David de Jong: well known in the sense that he was a scandal in the 1990s, where he tried to endow a chair at Oxford and valuable College into flick name.

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David de Jong: And it became a huge uproar in in in the UK, particularly in Jewish circles, of course, because his grandfather create a flick was arguably germany's most notorious industrialist when the 20th century and was convicted for war crimes and crimes against humanity at Nuremberg and.

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David de Jong: His grammar book tried to you know, try to undoubted Chad, not in his grandfather's name but, in the name of flick just in general flick name.

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David de Jong: And he ended up pulling the funding from the Chair and.

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David de Jong: He you know I correspondent with him, I was, I was allowed to side side part of our correspondence that I started in the notes on sources but but except from him.

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David de Jong: Except for him, you know his brother and sister never responded to to to any interview interview requests I sent to their family offices in their foundations and and that goes for all other of the individual, as was patriarchs and we're right about themselves.

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David de Jong: You know some of their family office spokespeople answered my question.

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David de Jong: Other unit, some of your company spokespeople like BMW gave me a statement Porsche actually the Porsche spokesperson was the most probably the most engaged, we went into this ping pong.

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David de Jong: kind of for 10 months is correspondence, where you know back and forth he tried to duck and dodge my questions and I tried to drill down as best as I could.

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David de Jong: is interesting because Borussia really tried to.

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David de Jong: They really tried to protect the myth of portion to really try to protect the brand and the end and at all costs.

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David de Jong: More so than any other country said.

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Gregory Zuckerman: it's fascinating because Germany as a nation.

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Gregory Zuckerman: has taken a large degree of responsibility there's accountability reparations one can say, maybe they should have done more, but I think one of the a lot of credit.

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Gregory Zuckerman: And as a real contrast with with these families i'm carrie carrie to explore that a little bit and that's something that came as a surprise, perhaps.

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David de Jong: It is, I mean these families are very much out of step with with with germany's remembrance culture and and I think it is, I mean there's there's a there's a couple of theories, I have about it.

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David de Jong: You know, first of all.

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David de Jong: These these errors they completely derived guy identity from being parents, I mean it's fathers and grandfathers who created the fortune.

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David de Jong: who made the last name big in a way, and I very much think that for them disavowing or being transparent being completely transparent about their father's you know crimes.

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David de Jong: Is is like disavowing their own identity and what is left of them except for their money if they also because they're completing the shadows of their fathers and grandfathers if they also kind of disavow by being transparent they disavowing their patriarchs so that's one part.

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David de Jong: of it, but I think Secondly, you know these they have major business interests, you know BMW Porsche well actually it's a Volkswagen group which is listed in there spinning off Porsche later this year and it's going to be one of shaping up to be one of the biggest ipos in 2022 you know.

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David de Jong: These are some concerns listed companies.

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David de Jong: And by being fully transparent I think they worried that it might hurt their sales their bottom line they're standing there brad's and you know yeah they do, they do de I think a day think by only showing the business successes and not.

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David de Jong: The war crimes that de de protected Brent.

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Gregory Zuckerman: yeah yeah i'm even though one can argue that transparency about the past.

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Gregory Zuckerman: Maybe you could help the brand.

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David de Jong: Exactly exactly that's a completely what I think that's I didn't agree more.

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Gregory Zuckerman: You know um let's go back to the writing process just a little bit um yeah I found it fascinating that the characters.

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Gregory Zuckerman: are interesting and you want to read about them and yet there's a line you don't want to cross as an author i'm sure, but as a reader to in terms of sympathizing.

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Gregory Zuckerman: or or empathizing how did you as a writer on deal with that and didn't or team, you did you think it through it did you say I don't want to make this character to appealing or does that not cross your mind.

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David de Jong: No luckily did that didn't cross my mind, also because.

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David de Jong: I I didn't have to dig that deep into the characters because there's so little of their personal fate of the way they fought personally or any of their personal reflections and you so they were so business mind, it does very little of their.

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David de Jong: of their individuals or, to be able to draw a character character, was it was extremely complicated because there were just so so secretive.

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David de Jong: Space your episode she'll shrouded in secrecy and even go into the archives, you get very little sense of what he's what he's meant actually work for the most part, so I luckily I didn't have to worry about it about that simply because of the scandalous of sourcing material.

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Gregory Zuckerman: yeah, but I would argue that i'm just describing the long life of going there.

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Gregory Zuckerman: And, and that long.

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Gregory Zuckerman: triangle and it hit are getting involved, I mean.

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Gregory Zuckerman: there's there's a temptation to it's humanizing them and I don't mean this in a way it's a it's.

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Gregory Zuckerman: Not a part of the author.

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David de Jong: No, no, definitely.

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David de Jong: It new in your way, I mean it's it's it's my favorite and it's one of my favorites storyline this love triangle between between printer question mark the Googles and Joseph Goebbels or end to end and and the custody by today had over how to punch.

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David de Jong: But, in a way it's all the other separate the rest of the book, which is, which is so much about business and and but.

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David de Jong: But it is yeah it is yeah it makes them, it makes them you I mean I don't know I mean does it make them more sympathy, I mean I.

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David de Jong: think they still call cromer come up come up with as horrible individuals above good trip want and marked as couples, you know, regardless of describing their love lives, I mean there were you know.

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David de Jong: Good jiuquan was was ruthless opportunist and and and yourself and like a google's were the most radical family of the Third Reich so it's it's there's no, you know it's hard to quantify I personally would argue.

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David de Jong: is perhaps the only.

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David de Jong: agonist of sorts or somebody who has some sort of likeability because of growing up being basically kidnapped by his bicep father and his mother.

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David de Jong: and growing up in the most radical Nazi family and never becoming a pilot Nazi party member as a teenager completely being decided interested.

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David de Jong: In in Nazi ISM at all and just wanting to you know drive drive drive motorcycles drive fast cars and and and chase girls, you know.

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David de Jong: And and flunking out of the Hitler youth camps and just having and also being quite frank, to has to step Father about it towards being lost when he is on the front lines as a paratrooper and and he in you know if I would pick one character.

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David de Jong: That I personally that I had some semblance of humanity in him, it was it's harlequin.

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Gregory Zuckerman: yeah and it just to make clear, I think you did a great job of of shedding light on these characters without.

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Gregory Zuckerman: Personalizing into the point where you empathize but then again, you know your health your health, but the subject matter, the reader I read raw numbers it's a story about the Holocaust so it's hard.

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Gregory Zuckerman: But at the end of the day, to advertise too much for these.

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Gregory Zuckerman: Because i'm tell us a little about the key characters in your book and what you find the most interesting.

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David de Jong: I mean it's five families, I write about it's it's the quantity to see which is the red thread of the book arguably the two of the quanta us today control.

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David de Jong: BMW as Derek and you're controlling Charles with BMW and their and their founding patriarch going to quants.

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David de Jong: Who.

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David de Jong: came to be one of germany's largest arms and batteries producers, one of the largest.

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David de Jong: You know, private individuals in the industry exploiters of force and slave Labor.

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David de Jong: And, as well as you know.

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David de Jong: Organizing and appropriating.

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David de Jong: Jewish on companies, as well as companies and in Nazi occupied territories and we got off scot free, together with his son Herbert.

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David de Jong: After the war his son Harvard was it was an important executive in his companies as well and is now held up.

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David de Jong: To the BMW Herbert Kwan foundation, as you would with the reverse model inspire responsible leadership in the name of a Nazi war criminal it's a global foundation is not just contained to German.

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David de Jong: So that's one family.

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David de Jong: And then the second one is the flick family we touched on earlier.

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David de Jong: who create a flick, as I said earlier, was the you know the most notorious are going to be the most notorious of the industries of the of the 20th century in Germany.

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David de Jong: Control, the largest privately held steel call and weapons conglomerate during a Third Reich was convicted for crimes and crimes against humanity at Nuremberg and was.

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David de Jong: sentence was commuted by john J mccloy in 1950 alongside many, many others, and within a decade, he was back on top as as as jeremy's richest man is controlling shareholder of diamond events.

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David de Jong: The third family are ugly be the most secretive and most well in many ways, also most insidious today is the art of is the phone thing clan who.

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David de Jong: The patriarch co founded audience immune agree to have the largest insurance and reinsurance today, it will supercharge this private bank called mark think in Munich.

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David de Jong: Which is so to Barclays a couple couple decades ago.

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David de Jong: And I was on think senior.

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David de Jong: was tasked by Hitler to to fundraise he was very as wealthiest and cinches man, or at least that's how it was described in the Nazi party so had their tasks him to to fundraise in 1933 from 1933 onwards.

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David de Jong: For the House or gotcha, which is still today one of munich's landmark museums it's on the southern edge of the of the English a garden up there.

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David de Jong: it's beautiful building.

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David de Jong: And he his fundraising because he didn't want to spend any money of his own of fellow with fellow tycoons and finance ears he raised 20 million hikes mark to building opened in 1937 and as a thank you, he got your area Nice, the.

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David de Jong: Rothschild bank to the Austrian branch of the Rothschild bank in Vienna, which at the time was large private banking in Australia.

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Gregory Zuckerman: Or you know something of a euphemism very nice mini explain just a second.

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David de Jong: yeah no pardon me sorry that that's a very important.

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David de Jong: Particularly in discovery sessions are very important, so are you Nice was the removing of Jewish ownership from an acid, whether this was.

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David de Jong: Whether this was you know, a company love shares shares company shares.

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David de Jong: Real Estate.

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David de Jong: Art jewelry you name it, it became exactly the euphemism.

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David de Jong: Get.

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David de Jong: You know, became prevalent in Nazi Germany and larger and after that Nazi occupied Europe for the expropriation.

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David de Jong: Of.

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David de Jong: Jewish business owners of Jewish men and women.

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David de Jong: And I never belonged.

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David de Jong: And it had initially had the veneer.

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David de Jong: Of a of a of a of a you know, have a normal business transaction.

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David de Jong: Until in from 1935 onwards, from the from from them that the normal grace laws were instituted to do dried expropriation of their assets and then see them just be playing robbery.

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David de Jong: As the 1930s as a bird persecution ramps up and particularly from 1937 1938 onwards, that is, the what the you know I mean it's it determines is.

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David de Jong: yeah it's a it's a terrible term but yeah.

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David de Jong: So, so one think was.

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David de Jong: Was you know was then allowed to area Nice, the rush up a bank in in in.

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David de Jong: in Australia, as well as the drivers bank in Berlin.

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David de Jong: And also got off scot free after war again became one of German is one of the largest lie was one of the largest land owners in Bavaria.

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David de Jong: and his son, I was with think uni or who passed away November 2021 late November 2021 and 91 was reported to be one of the large became one of became one of germany's well, I would say, one of europe's.

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David de Jong: largest and most secretive investors never spoke never will give one interviewed press Father at least did.

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David de Jong: And you know started funding right wing and eventually fire right causes from the 1990s onwards, and until you know, as recent as.

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David de Jong: Reportedly.

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David de Jong: The last couple of years, where he was expected to be.

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David de Jong: One of the main backers fd if day opportunity for DOJ stones alternative for journey for Germany the the major far right party.

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David de Jong: interviewed major far right opposition party in Germany funding funding concerns.

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David de Jong: And and very little research has been done on the phone things will actually all they need is sons, I was something your son sit on a board of georgetown university, I went to georgetown where you also have the BMW.

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David de Jong: Center for German studies at georgetown you know.

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David de Jong: Fourthly, does see there's a Porsche bfm you today control the Volkswagen group, it is arguably the only family, the end of book.

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David de Jong: No, it is the only family in the book that.

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David de Jong: laid a foundation for its fortune during a Third Reich.

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David de Jong: The audio families are right about already extremely wealthy point on the indices power, of course.

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David de Jong: Very numb Porsche design folk swag and convince handler, to put it into production.

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David de Jong: But lesser known story.

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David de Jong: That that portion together with a sudden goal on PA.

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David de Jong: Founded for the Porsche design firm in 1930 together with auto flows and burger a Jewish man.

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David de Jong: From for time, Germany, a former racecar driver and also have a car designer like like Fred and Porsche.

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David de Jong: Who.

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David de Jong: You know who was the financial backer and again that commercial director of of Porsche and who.

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David de Jong: ended up leaving for us or resigning from Porsche and American circumstances on on January 30 1933.

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David de Jong: The day had this these power in Germany stayed on as a shareholder until July July 1935 and was damn bought out.

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David de Jong: At the nominal value of his shares.

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David de Jong: So far below the market value of this shift bye.

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David de Jong: bye goodbye for an abortion on the BF and his shares were transferred to fatty Porsche Porsche son.

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David de Jong: And you know, out of Las Vegas subsequently us from from from Porsche company as through.

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David de Jong: adding insult to injury, you know fatty Porsche voluntary applied to the SS in 1938 was admitted to the sse 1941 designed it first portion sportscar 1947.

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David de Jong: made portion to the global sports icon it is today.

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David de Jong: surrounded himself with high ranking SS officers former SS officers in 19 in the 1950s and 60s.

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David de Jong: Many of whom death sentence was commuted or some of rooms sentences or one case death sentence was commuted by us German panel and then immediately got out of prison and we're employing a Porsche.

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David de Jong: But adding insult to injury, in his.

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David de Jong: Very Porsches first autobiography we had Porsche which is published in 1967 in in the US first.

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David de Jong: where he spewed virulent anti Semitic material about out of eisenberger.

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David de Jong: You know, in the in plain sight, you know you didn't even have there was no qualms about that he didn't seem to be no, they can follow you could just write that you know I mean.

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David de Jong: where he uses 1000 bags of of extorting.

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David de Jong: A Porsche and his father and brother in law after the war for trying to come back trying to be well try to be reinstated, as opposed to shareholder and then tried to be compensated rights as a form of ports to shareholder.

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Gregory Zuckerman: To get out to me like he had a little some guilty conscience there where he knew rosenberg he owed a lot to rosenberg and and was lashing out beyond the five the traditional anti semitism, maybe there was an element of.

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Gregory Zuckerman: Interesting I don't realize the role that rosenberg can play.

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David de Jong: Right know.

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David de Jong: Very few people, unfortunately, have.

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David de Jong: yeah no I mean yeah I mean he was one of the cofounders of abortion and a major I mean Fred and Porsche you know we'd spent prolifically on Porsche design's he was the one who got to the flood, for the first couple of years.

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Gregory Zuckerman: I wrote the merc with it and German here I wasn't even a war hero.

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David de Jong: yeah it was in yes exactly yes you're absolutely right, he served for the default for the German empire and will want as many Jewish man German Jewish men did.

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David de Jong: During World War one right.

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David de Jong: yeah and he ended up being after the after you know six weeks after he transferred, it shows to factory Porsche or sold the shares, he was arrested by the Gestapo and was held in around prison and called score and then.

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David de Jong: out for for for a few days, any constraints, you can kiss and and you know ended up immigrating to the United States to those answers yeah.

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Gregory Zuckerman: Thank God he got out of it yeah.

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David de Jong: Yes, yes yeah indeed.

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Gregory Zuckerman: So I do have to ask you um I was reading about the Porsche family in a in a park recently, and then I get in my car and parked right next to me is is a Porsche.

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Gregory Zuckerman: You know i'm in you know.

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Gregory Zuckerman: Many people in my community and others on Dr forces and some of these other.

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Gregory Zuckerman: Products that you write about what, what is your own attitude and and frankly i'll just expressed to me that um.

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Gregory Zuckerman: I it was nice it was a reminder for me not you know it, but you don't know you forget it, maybe it's and listen you go to Israel and you see bosses bosses, or at least needs to be Mercedes Benz.

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Gregory Zuckerman: So, but.

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Gregory Zuckerman: The complicated stuff what's your own.

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Gregory Zuckerman: perspective.

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David de Jong: I mean i'm a journalist, I think people should make up their own minds to what consumer brands de de de by or on or drive or eat.

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David de Jong: You know people should make up their own minds with defects from the book.

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David de Jong: But what my argument of the book is is historical transparency and, if you are going to maintain and find it and foundation in in fairy Porsches name or an herbal cleanse name.

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David de Jong: And you just celebrate the fact that you know fairly Borussia designed for a sports car for sports car 1947 but leave out defected he was a voluntary assess Member we're going to be affiliated himself with high ranking SS officers.

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David de Jong: At Borussia while I see oh.

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David de Jong: You know debt should not be they should be transparent about their history, they should show that history or same with with with the BMW Harvard Kwan foundation.

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David de Jong: You know, we did the only line similar with with reports you on the line on the BMW have recon foundation's website is.

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David de Jong: Is the fact that about very concentrated he saved BMW from bankruptcy 959 but it doesn't say that Herbert quants.

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David de Jong: Planned built and dismantled a sub concentration camp in Nazi occupied Bowling in late 9045 for early 1945 dead he had the responsibility.

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David de Jong: Of a battery factories in Berlin or thousands of forcing slave laborers were exploited, including hundreds of female survivors from concentration terms dead he acquired.

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David de Jong: Companies sees from Jews are better company sees from Jews and friends and that he use at his own private state prisoners of war and forced Labor so you know you inspire responsible leadership by being transparent about history by showing the good and the bad.

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David de Jong: And you know if they don't want to do that, they should they should go name the foundations attributes.

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Gregory Zuckerman: But do I have to ask you, after doing your research, would you drive a Porsche or a BMW.

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David de Jong: I would not know, but I find them also.

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David de Jong: In Dutch we would say or in Germany would say pull a trash or like polo you it's it's it's Nouveau it to be discussed, I find them to be new voguish and I don't like them okay yeah.

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David de Jong: um but that's more of a personal so that's more of a personal aesthetic done yeah.

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Gregory Zuckerman: um so as I read the book I kept thinking about.

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Gregory Zuckerman: Hannah Arendt and various quotes from Aaron and um you know we all have various ones, one I picked out was a hold on one second The sad truth is sad true and i'm not a huge fan of hers I don't make that clear but i'm just.

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David de Jong: sharing it but.

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Gregory Zuckerman: The sad truth is that most evil is done by people who never make up their minds to be good or evil.

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Gregory Zuckerman: Right and and.

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Gregory Zuckerman: I kept I kept wondering how much these people knew how much was there willful ignorance.

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Gregory Zuckerman: Of what was going on there clearly was a elements of your elements of ethics Emma has obviously among all the people you're right about um but do they know.

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Gregory Zuckerman: me they knew they how what level was their knowledge on how yeah, how do you weigh in on, and again I saw someone do something accommodation, there was some people like quiet who helped some Jews as well right, while also.

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Gregory Zuckerman: Yes, hurting robbing.

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David de Jong: Others So yes, so.

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David de Jong: I mean, he helped he helped us that we're dead dead there's an example I name in the book of George sacks, who was the head of metallurgy for his for quants for good records.

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David de Jong: do for you, for going to quants weapons manufacturer dw.

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David de Jong: And he once he becomes on the re one sucks gets on the radar.

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David de Jong: And is already 1930 points good ones appointed to the board, I think, in 1936 or 37.

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David de Jong: And then he goes and gets on the radar of Joseph Goebbels is.

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David de Jong: In Berlin, district and and and quanta helps him gives them money to to be for the United States, and he ends up being a professor of metallurgy at case Western University in Ohio.

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David de Jong: and

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David de Jong: I mean this was somebody You helped him, because this was somebody who was beneficial to his company, I mean that's how he fought, you know this was not out of a.

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David de Jong: Out of a.

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David de Jong: love for Jews, you know I mean yeah no there were there were braising opportunities, I mean it's also not like these men were convinced and December.

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David de Jong: Right, there were not racial anti Semites I would say, they were in trint they're related at the Semites are intrinsic anti Semites in a sense that it was so normal to.

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David de Jong: Anti Semitism in Germany in touch and GOS circles are in Christian circles was so intrinsic anyway, you know Lou furniture, particularly you know many people saw you had learned the reincarnation of Martin Luther right, it was my new photos fairer than the anti Semitic.

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David de Jong: So it was not mean they had a lot of Jewish business partners, you know.

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David de Jong: It but it, but it they go into quantum, how do you help.

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David de Jong: Jews.

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David de Jong: Were beneficial to to his company to have them get out maybe you could use them in the future, who knows you know I mean that was kind of the finger.

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David de Jong: If you saw good business opportunity if he saw the company could buy a cheap from from from from a Jewish family, then you would have no scruples no qualms about exploiting it opportunity as well.

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Gregory Zuckerman: So are the people you write about if you can generalize maybe talk specifically if you want.

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Gregory Zuckerman: A de de moral an amoral are they people that didn't focus on ethic um How would you wait in or they're just bad are they bad people um.

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David de Jong: Well they're they're bad people but, but you know your.

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David de Jong: I would say, a morality she's also you know yeah it's also bad you know yeah there were a moral yeah they were they were you were all in there were also to an extent, they were also criminals.

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David de Jong: They committed crimes, you know it wasn't just I mean there's a very clear distinction want us to make between profiting from capitalism right and committing crimes, you know you can put.

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David de Jong: Some of the things they do a dead like rearmament, you know profiting from rearmament it hit their initiate this massive rearm and pushing on 34.

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David de Jong: And you had billions flown to the Conference of these industrialists, you know that's probably I would argue, yet it was against the Versailles Treaty so that the rearmament was initially secretive until Hitler went public with it in 35.

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David de Jong: that's profiting from capitalism.

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David de Jong: benefiting from the mass force a slave Labor program that was put in place in Germany.

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David de Jong: From 1941 onwards, you know.

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David de Jong: Increasing gradations of of of of brutality of torture of murder.

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David de Jong: You know that's criminal.

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David de Jong: appropriating the you know the assets owned by Jews, is a criminal act, you know, and they were also indicted for for it to do, or at least really flick was indicted for it after work and conducted for for at least war crimes and crimes against humanity.

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David de Jong: yeah.

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Gregory Zuckerman: we're the examples that were uplifting that we're encouraging to you.

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Gregory Zuckerman: Anybody in righteous way that you came across in your research.

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Gregory Zuckerman: calling this pause yeah.

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David de Jong: Oh yeah yeah no I mean i'm racking my brain and it's funny to no one has ever asked me that question in the past couple weeks, but no, no, I mean.

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David de Jong: uplifting in a way, where they well, I mean just you know, sometimes they help people, I guess, I don't know I mean yeah we do yeah yes, it does sometimes it helped us, I guess that's good, I came across that example.

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Gregory Zuckerman: When it when it suited them when it.

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David de Jong: when it suits them yeah exactly so yeah they want to benefit them so that's.

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David de Jong: me that's again yeah I mean i'm trying to rack my brain, to say something positive, but fortunately I got yeah.

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Gregory Zuckerman: yeah I know you don't have to, but I.

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David de Jong: Fortunately, or you know I mean it is what it is yeah.

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Gregory Zuckerman: yeah right how What do you do with the question of.

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Gregory Zuckerman: How we judge them and are we in a position to judge them, meaning that it obviously seems obvious the actions aren't those that they're they're all condemned but.

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Gregory Zuckerman: Who knows how.

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Gregory Zuckerman: Western capitalist would have acted in those same positions, how do you wrestle with that kind of question.

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David de Jong: finger would have.

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David de Jong: You mean it's like saying like British type of this, I mean.

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Gregory Zuckerman: American today today.

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David de Jong: Under under lucky, are we saying if Charles lindbergh would have.

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David de Jong: been the President United States and and and they would have done so, I mean he said is that kind of the question, or I mean.

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Gregory Zuckerman: No, no.

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David de Jong: But he was a.

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Gregory Zuckerman: He was ideological by nature i'm thinking.

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David de Jong: But I mean like, if I had had.

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David de Jong: Charles lindbergh becomes the president of the US and would have instilled the same policies that Hitler did in Germany, how they would have wrestled with that, like.

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Gregory Zuckerman: yeah yeah yeah.

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David de Jong: They would have done the same, they would have absolutely yeah yeah yeah, this is not an intrinsic to German this is Germany, no.

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David de Jong: No, this is no, they would have done the same yeah and we Ford, was a very little DEMO, as we know, would have would have done the same, and.

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David de Jong: Had Charles lindbergh becomes President and and and instill the same kind of policies that other fiddler did yeah I mean we're you know we're talking about an alternate reality here, but you know.

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Gregory Zuckerman: there's nothing exceptional about these people necessarily or about Germany itself, in your view.

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David de Jong: that's a very difficult question, I mean.

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David de Jong: In many ways, Nazi Germany yeah that's the Germany was exceptional because it was and it happened right and and there is no comparison to to what happened.

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David de Jong: or or the accident Nazi Germany perpetrated, but we should view it on a level, I mean we're both business journalist, and we should fear in our level of what these.

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David de Jong: tycoons entire finance ears would have done in the United States from the United Kingdom or in the Netherlands watch in the Netherlands that actually happened but let's say the United States, the United Kingdom.

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David de Jong: yeah that would have there's no there's no dirt yeah that would have done the same, because I do think that the conditions inherently capitalism also you know.

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David de Jong: perpetrate can can you know cross the line and go into into into criminal Eric going to criminal accident, that is, that is, that would that would have been the same united sets I think yeah.

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David de Jong: I do think that yeah yeah.

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Gregory Zuckerman: Interesting um, so I think in about five minutes will take i'll go to the Q amp a and i'll read through those and you'll indulge me as I read through them, but I want to remind people just not to give just.

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Gregory Zuckerman: comments, however interesting they might be in the Q amp a but just to keep those to the questions I think the chat will be where people can share their thoughts make comments.

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Gregory Zuckerman: If we could but let's talk about maybe today.

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Gregory Zuckerman: and Germany yeah and i'm not I don't want to put on the spot necessarily.

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Gregory Zuckerman: That um you know there's a war going on for Ukraine that's been attacked in Germany has been criticized for.

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Gregory Zuckerman: Absolute business dance.

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Gregory Zuckerman: And you could say hey Who are we to judge Germany they depend on natural gas from Russia will what, what is your take on on that kind of question.

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David de Jong: Well, did my take is that Germany has made itself beholden to to to to is addicted to Russian Russian gas and oil and.

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David de Jong: Then it's politicians, I mean Greg our Charter think many of us read the incredible mind blowing interview Kathleen bendel did with character in New York Times last week.

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David de Jong: And you know he's literally he's he's proven exactly any any willingly so I mean he's no does he has no qualms about admitting admitting so.

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David de Jong: So he goes, so I mean I mean you know.

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David de Jong: A former German Chancellor German Chancellor, for seven years, that is basically box by by the Russian regime.

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David de Jong: is very telling, for he, and this is the Social Democrat Party right very telling for the stands for the for the for the brother.

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David de Jong: Germany way Germany made itself completely reliant didn't want one itself within itself on on off of.

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David de Jong: Russian gas and oil particularly guys.

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David de Jong: and which also explains the muted response, I mean there's two factors to first of all, when it comes to any kind of war.

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David de Jong: Germany is very scared to do it, I mean Germany is very scared of its own power of its own mind right, we were talking about.

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David de Jong: You know they they're terribly afraid of making the wrong decision and backfiring and everybody pointing to Germany, you know.

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David de Jong: You know, we look at them, they messed up again so it's that it's a fear right that keeps them from making any kind of.

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David de Jong: Substantial policy decisions bar defect course it all of shorts the now the current chancer announced that they're going to ramp up which the major step the Defense budget to 100 billion euros.

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David de Jong: And I mean, secondly.

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David de Jong: You know policies decisions have been made under call under chance I would called and understood and under medical you know medical was very you know was was America and Britain were you know put we respected Merkel.

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David de Jong: very much.

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David de Jong: Get that that made that that that yeah again that may Germany beholding to to to Russia, and now they have to deal with the consequences and it's going to be extremely difficult.

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David de Jong: For Germany to get out of it to get out of it without hurting their without hurting the economy and their bottom line very, very seriously, so they have to do have to backtrack after the end of course Germany being you know.

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David de Jong: The dominant economy in Europe, but also on a global level.

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David de Jong: Their actions have consequences great consequences, politically and economically, for the European continent, but also on a global scale, so.

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David de Jong: So I do understand or caution, I very much understand it, both from a historical perspective, a political perspective and economic perspective.

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David de Jong: But but day to day must act, you know I mean it's it's it's they have to they have to you know def to withdraw from death to have to go to a painful withdraw it's going to be cold Turkey literally you know it's yeah yeah.

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Gregory Zuckerman: yeah as I read your book I couldn't help thinking about some of the practical decisions made by some of these capitalists in the book and practical decisions today by journey.

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Gregory Zuckerman: I want to shift gears just a little bit and go back to the book there's one character that you know I find kind of fascinating I didn't know I it's my fault, I really know much about him I john the client.

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David de Jong: yeah yeah.

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Gregory Zuckerman: tell us a little bit about him and why he's an important or interesting character.

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David de Jong: mean Georgia mccloy was the I mean he was many things you serve many roles in American life, he was you know, he was an establishment, he was a republican lawyer lawyer and banker.

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David de Jong: Republic and he was the high High Commissioner for occupy Germany was appointed by Truman and i'm 50 is a High Commissioner for occupy Germany and made.

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David de Jong: The political decision or an expedient political decision.

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David de Jong: to commute.

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David de Jong: The sentences for many industrialist.

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David de Jong: pardon for the industries that were convicted on a number of trials, but particularly for many high ranking SS officers who had slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Jews, as you know, commanding the izod scooper in Eastern Europe and.

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Gregory Zuckerman: dozens and dozens and.

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David de Jong: dozens and dozens and dozens of doesn't make any mistake about doesn't you know we're only those was actually I mean, how can you even compare these things right you we do so egregious that they were.

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David de Jong: ended up being executed, but dozens and dozens of high rank SS officers were rosanna we definitely were committed to life senses and who senses were 10 shortened 234 years and they were out by the MID 50s or by you know, in some cases 1957.

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Gregory Zuckerman: I was shocked by that I always thought that I was shocked.

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David de Jong: yeah yeah I mean mean it was a.

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David de Jong: appeasement it was a decision, they wanted to appease West Germany the Korean War had broken out the Cold War was raging.

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David de Jong: They needed a a day needed West Germany as an ally, as the key industrialized Western nation again from the early 1950s onwards.

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David de Jong: To fail, I mean first room and then I, as an hour in Ecuador Defense SEC American factories were producing for the war effort in Korea.

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David de Jong: And in Germany was able to fill that gap, but the German public and call that out now or the very influential Chancellor.

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David de Jong: were not happy with with with their citizens still being held at lunch, but prison for war crimes and and you know i've gone through the archives at Columbia.

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David de Jong: Which hotel for taylor's archives, which was the prosecutor for the succeed subsequent Nuremberg trials and you know, he was outraged by john Gemma clause decision like so angry.

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David de Jong: rightfully and there's nothing and I went to the George chemical archiving at amherst college and you know there's there's nothing and it's so much data is still redacted action in the mccloy archive that.

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David de Jong: Is no explanation anything I read about from a coin is or why he made this decision, other than political experience, I mean it was just it was you know it's it's mind blowing.

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Gregory Zuckerman: And McCoy correct me if i'm wrong, I think it's also responsible for the Japanese internment camps in the United States coming up with that.

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David de Jong: I mean.

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David de Jong: yeah yeah.

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Gregory Zuckerman: Sure, and yet McCoy could not be more of an established big establishment figure in United States advisor to almost every.

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David de Jong: President absolutely.

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Gregory Zuckerman: Over the part both parties yeah he's a fascinating.

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David de Jong: character i'm.

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Gregory Zuckerman: Just just before we wind things down and take some some questions, I just want to kind of get your sense for.

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Gregory Zuckerman: How much do they know how much they know about the.

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Gregory Zuckerman: atrocity going on um how much it was willful ignorance.

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Gregory Zuckerman: didn't weigh in on that if you could.

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yeah.

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David de Jong: They knew about what was going on in their factories months they knew the exploitation of forces slave laborers or the use of concentration camp inmates Jewish men and women that were using our factories and lines on a large scale.

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David de Jong: day they.

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David de Jong: did not know about the holiday didn't know about the extermination.

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Gregory Zuckerman: They did not know because I think you had a theme when they took on a tour to, and I look Thank you.

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David de Jong: Yes, they took him they took her on tour to dotto.

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David de Jong: In 1936 and Dakota was the first concentration camp.

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David de Jong: It was also it was it was never an extermination camps, I mean the extermination camps, for you know building secrets during the war at work secret.

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David de Jong: Secret to DSS and and and the Nazi regime and there.

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David de Jong: You know and and the locale and people coming close by to Raj in important.

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David de Jong: Day new.

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David de Jong: But but yeah I mean it's a.

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David de Jong: New gym look at this as leader and you are architected the Holocaust takes off his his you have this you know fundraise group for DSS inner circle friends, which really slick.

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David de Jong: And and Richard kozlowski to have the main character my book, are members of and almost i'm going to.

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David de Jong: And they get this they kind of to get this day they get this.

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David de Jong: kind of Potemkin village tour of duck out but everybody knew.

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David de Jong: You know already does 1936 right.

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David de Jong: Everybody knew that these were these were.

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David de Jong: atrocious horrific awful places.

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David de Jong: But that's a concentration gun right and and we have to distinguish it, I mean he's our new ones, but.

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David de Jong: But did the I haven't I haven't found any evidence that these are the nurses were aware of the you know if the system of the systematic extermination of of Jewish men, women and children, and you know, an extermination terms.

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David de Jong: But they knew they knew what they what their own companies, the atrocities their own companies were committed.

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David de Jong: right on a large scale using you know, hundreds of thousands of men, women and children to in their factories and minds of course eight himself at know these men had no qualms about acquiring.

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David de Jong: Jewish owned businesses.

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David de Jong: Businesses owned by by men and women in Nazi occupied territories or mass producing for the Nazi war machine.

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David de Jong: So they were very much aware of what they were doing absolutely it's didn't go this was not there were executives of their companies and they knew and they cared about their bottom lines of code about making profits they knew what was going on their companies at the time, so.

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Gregory Zuckerman: So i'm going to pick pick and choose that I apologize for questions that I missed, there are a lot of them, and I have to read quickly so i'm going to pick something that I can digest quickly and share.

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Gregory Zuckerman: i'm Sarah asks are there American brands are business people in their errors that also profited off the Nazi regime, they do.

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Gregory Zuckerman: Excuse me did business.

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Gregory Zuckerman: That did business with any of the families you're right about.

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David de Jong: There are three main examples that come to me well there's too many examples that come to mind General Motors and opal.

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David de Jong: which was a, which is a German Cobra and Chicago and and they had dead extensive dealings in Germany during your Third Reich.

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David de Jong: And opal itself, you know mass produce weapons use force and slave Labor so General Motors was you know treat subsidiary was.

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David de Jong: very much involved and also reptiles, you know executive GM executives met with Hitler and you know so well documented and of course there's the famous example of IBM.

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David de Jong: which you know deliver the computers at tabulated the top, I mean for tabulate the Holocaust, you know I mean it's it's there's no really other way of putting it.

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David de Jong: And also tabulated all the the assets that were stolen and sees from from from.

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David de Jong: Jewish men and women going into concentration camps or injury extermination camps and never returned, you know that's that's another and it's also something.

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David de Jong: That that IBM completely glosses over in on their corporate what did they don't they don't show anything of that and, of course, as afraid as the there's the there's the famous example of and before it was who was you know massive admirer of hendler virulent anti Semite.

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David de Jong: And, but he.

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David de Jong: will be see ya for didn't produce for the for the German market so much fun.

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Gregory Zuckerman: i'm gonna paraphrase another question, do you talk about transparency and what some of these foundations and companies could do, what about in terms of reparations um do you have a sentence, you have a view on that.

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David de Jong: mean there is a very in 1999.

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David de Jong: An agreement was made between the Well, first of all there's many individual agreements that were made.

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David de Jong: You know, through legal recourse after the war were surviving as or business owners struggle to get there companies back or the essence back.

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David de Jong: From you know from the that that had been expropriated or appropriated so there were individual settlement many, many individual settlements and still a lot going on today when it comes to real estate.

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David de Jong: and ours, for example, right so that is one part of the episode saved the restitution question now when it comes to the compensation question of forces slave Labor there was he.

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David de Jong: He agreement between the MAC and in German Government that was made in 1999 Stewart eyes and start negotiating on behalf of the American Government on a plane administration.

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David de Jong: With.

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David de Jong: With a certain with decoder administration.

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David de Jong: And it's all for the.

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David de Jong: Establishment of the of a foundation called efforts at memory remember remembrance and future I only know the entering from 14 to come to come yeah so met remember and responsibility and a future.

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David de Jong: In which about 1010 billion Deutsche mark, which is about 5.6 billion euros at the time but 6,000,006 billion USD.

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David de Jong: was put into this Foundation to compensate for us and slave Labor force that they were surviving for survivors between 2001 2006.

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David de Jong: and a half the money was given was contributed by the German Government half of the money was supposed to be buried in by German business.

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David de Jong: By the time the payouts war between 2001 and 2000 and 2006 by the time you know the Foundation was established many German companies had not paid up yet.

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David de Jong: I ended up that 1818 big German businesses where domain initiators and also domain ones that were sued in class action lawsuits in the US bye bye bye survivors.

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David de Jong: ended up paying about 60% of the entire year at companies of the 6500 companies were responsible for 60% of the of the of the bug of the mind, it was fed into and, and this is very important in your agreement between the United States Government and the German Government.

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David de Jong: The German companies did not have to date didn't have to admit you any wrongdoing or any call kind of culpability.

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Gregory Zuckerman: marcy bloom asks about that BMW study Center German history at georgetown has the university explain or justify this disgraceful moral contradiction.

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David de Jong: I only recently learned a bitch and I actually want to follow up with GA s cow how gay heard a few does yeah so I haven't it was only some reason, I have not reached out to them, yet to to to do follow up reporting and discuss it with them.

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Gregory Zuckerman: yeah you write an article for publication about that I.

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Gregory Zuckerman: Just follow um let's see um.

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Gregory Zuckerman: Well, I guess, there was some some people asking in terms of the genesis of the book a little bit more, and maybe what you found most surprising in your research.

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David de Jong: The most surprising two things I think it's a brazen wide Washington still happen today after after after companies like BMW imports are pretending you're dead reckoning with this best, even though they're.

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David de Jong: they're leaving the history out and, secondly, I think the scale of the crimes still astounded me just kind of how widespread decided this the scale of it, the numbers of people of force and slave Labor stakes, but in their companies, the number of.

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David de Jong: Jewish owned businesses that were dead were taken over far below market value or assets that were rolled out drives.

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David de Jong: You know, deep I think it's still the scale of it all that that's still that the sound that sounds me.

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Gregory Zuckerman: Okay, and.

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Gregory Zuckerman: With the local one last question um let's see yeah well well i'll paraphrase Stevens, will this book have an impact, you think i'm in terms of the attitude of any the companies do you think.

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Gregory Zuckerman: No.

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David de Jong: I said yeah no yeah no that's not what I said no.

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David de Jong: I said yeah yeah yeah I said well listen today is may 5 it's it's it's the publication date of German translation.

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David de Jong: You know, Germany is a very is is like a like most very big countries, I myself come from a quite a small country but, like most big countries are quite insular.

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David de Jong: And and there's not a lot of spillover there's not any spillover from these English speaking media or English English language media to to German press.

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David de Jong: And i'm very curious how the book is going to be received in Germany, and whether that it's going to have any effect on because any change has to come from within Germany, I mean there's not going to yield to outside outside forces.

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Gregory Zuckerman: That they thought I could go on and I apologize for those I couldn't get your everyone's question, but they were good questions I just didn't have time.

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Gregory Zuckerman: i'm going to pass it over to Sydney I want to thank David and personally and David um it's still your mouth good over there, so I think you should go out and celebrate it's a wonderful day over there, so thank you for taking the time and i'll pass it over to Sydney.

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David de Jong: Thank you Greg.

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Sydney Yaeger (she/her): I want to echo a Gregory said, and thank you so much, David and thank you so much to Gregory this was such a really interesting interview, and I personally learned so much.

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Sydney Yaeger (she/her): So thank you both for taking the time to be here today, and I also want to thank all of you out there in the Internet verse for joining us today.

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Sydney Yaeger (she/her): I highly encourage you to go purchase Nazi millionaires which you can do at the link in the zoom chat.

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Sydney Yaeger (she/her): Also, everything we do at the museum is made possible through donor support so to those of you watching we.

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Sydney Yaeger (she/her): Hope you'll consider making a donation to support the museum or becoming a member and joining us for upcoming programs, which you can check out also at the links and was in chat.

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Sydney Yaeger (she/her): Have a great afternoon Thank you again to Gregory and David, this was amazing and thank you all again for joining us.

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David de Jong: Thank you Sydney is a lot Greg.

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Sydney Yaeger (she/her): Thanks.