Harvey Milk: Gay Jewish Icon

This program’s original recording transcript is below. This transcription was created automatically during a live program so may contain inaccurate transcriptions of some words.

Rabbi Marisa Elana James: Wonderful Thank you so much, and welcome everyone CPS T is thrilled to be co sponsoring with the Museum of Jewish heritage Harvey milk gay Jewish icon.

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Rabbi Marisa Elana James: And I will say I find it deeply moving to be involved with anything that honors the many complex facets of Harvey milk, because you kind of leave Rafa may have memory, be a blessing.

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Rabbi Marisa Elana James: Like Harvey I am gay I grew up in a conservative Jewish community I briefly worked in teaching and retail and on Wall Street before moving towards social justice work as my profession.

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Rabbi Marisa Elana James: Now i'm the director of social justice programming at CBS T, which is in the garment district where century ago, my great grandfather worked in the garment industry, and I have definitely thought to myself at certain moments, what would Harvey do.

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Rabbi Marisa Elana James: it's partly thanks to Harvey milk, that the modern world looks the way it looks and certainly for those of us who live in an overlap.

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Rabbi Marisa Elana James: The Jewish community LGBT Q Community political activism communities, social justice and human rights communities his influence is profound and i'll be honest that even I hadn't realized the extent of his impact until I read Lillian fader men's book last summer.

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Rabbi Marisa Elana James: And, most of us don't have quite as many overlapping complex identities as Harvey did, but I guess that everyone in this room love somebody who is LGBT or Q.

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Rabbi Marisa Elana James: i'm guessing that everybody here today cares about somebody who is Jewish and has had their Judaism or had a friends Judaism inspire the work that we do in the world.

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Rabbi Marisa Elana James: I would guess that everybody in this room is proud of someone who is very politically active and supports people who are fighting for Labor rights and respect and protection in the workplace, including in our Jewish communities.

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Rabbi Marisa Elana James: All of us have felt the impact of Harvey milk's existence in our lives, whether we realize it or not, and i'm very much looking forward to learning more about that impact from William and Eric today.

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Rabbi Marisa Elana James: It is hard to know what harvey's life would have looked like had he not been murdered.

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Rabbi Marisa Elana James: It is one of the tragedies of our world, but sometimes people who are amazing human beings do not get the attention they deserve unless something terrible happens to them.

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Rabbi Marisa Elana James: But the work that Harvey did was remarkable and I am deeply grateful that not only do we know about it, not only did he not disappear into history.

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Rabbi Marisa Elana James: But even now more scholarship more writing more pride in who he was and what he did for our world is still coming into.

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Rabbi Marisa Elana James: Our reading tables onto our devices into our podcasts that we have such a wealth of archival and historical work to draw from as we seek inspiration for the things that we do today.

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Rabbi Marisa Elana James: Harvey milk's memory is indeed a blessing has worked in his passion continue to inspire me, and I hope all of us, and I hope that all of us can continue to make his memory, be a blessing for the generations that will come after us and all the work that we do.

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Rabbi Marisa Elana James: All right, thank you.

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Ari Goldstein: That was so beautiful rabbi James Thank you an honor is really ours museum of Jewish heritage to be including CBS T.

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Ari Goldstein: As our co presenter i'll just add that this is October is LGBT history month, so this is an important story to tell all year but it's particularly meaningful to be gathered today.

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Ari Goldstein: you're delighted to welcome Lillian fader in and Eric Marcus who you'll hear from in just a moment.

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Ari Goldstein: Lillian is a distinguished scholar of LGBT Q history and the author of 11 books, including Harvey milk is lives and death.

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Ari Goldstein: which was published by the wonderful Jewish life series at Yale university press and we'll put the link to order that book in the zoom chat in just a moment among billions many honors or six Lambda literary awards and Anna spelled wolf book award.

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Ari Goldstein: Eric Marcus is a distinguished journalist and the author of 12 books, if I have that right Eric.

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Ari Goldstein: As well as the founder and host of the making gay history podcast and that those who are their voices from the Holocaust podcast which the museum co produced.

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Ari Goldstein: Eric founded and chairs and still no 50 consortium and we just discovered that in 1992 Eric and Lillian work appeared side by side on the front page of the New York Times book review and we're glad to bring them back together today.

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Ari Goldstein: We will begin in just a moment with a presentation from Lillian.

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Ari Goldstein: i'll share some for Harvey milk expertise and follow that with a moderated conversation between Eric and Lillian.

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Ari Goldstein: If you have questions about Harvey milk and his legacy, please feel free to share them anytime zoom Q amp a box will save about 15 minutes, towards the end of the hour to get to them.

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Ari Goldstein: we're recording today's program and will send out the video tomorrow by email without further ado, thank you all for joining us thank you lily and Eric for being here and we'll turn things over to you.

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Lillian Faderman: Thank you for your introduction are, and thank you for your beautiful birds rabbi.

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Lillian Faderman: I first wrote about Harvey milk and my book, the gay revolution, but because his Jewish background wasn't the focus of that book I didn't discuss it extensively.

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Lillian Faderman: But I was very aware of it, partly because Harvey was practically Alonso, and his grandfather came from a Lithuanian.

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Lillian Faderman: shtetl that was right across the border with lot via and my mother came from a Latvian shtetl that was about 30 kilometers from the Lithuanian borders, so we were booklet box.

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Lillian Faderman: So when Yale university press invited me to write a biography of Harvey for the Jewish live series it took me about 10 seconds to say yes.

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Lillian Faderman: So before herrick Eric and I chat and answer your questions, I want to show a few pictures and talk a little bit about harvey's jewishness and how it impacted not only his life, but especially his focus as a gay leader.

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Lillian Faderman: Like many American Jews, he didn't see his strong Jewish identity is having anything to do with being religiously observant but he loved.

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Lillian Faderman: Yiddish kite he was just tied to the cultural aspects of being Jewish I interviewed a couple of people who told me the on the wall of Castro camera the little shop in San Francisco that he.

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Lillian Faderman: owned and operated with his partner, he had a his bar mitzvah picture hanging.

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Lillian Faderman: I was told by other people that he just love to talk about the joys of pastrami on rye or chopped liver with coleslaw and he really loved to exchange the other phrases.

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Lillian Faderman: Those are the fun aspects of being Jewish, but much more seriously, he took very seriously himself the idea of tikkun olam of helping to repair the world.

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Lillian Faderman: I think his political ideas can be understood best through that lens the lens of tikkun olam maybe we have the next slide please sorry.

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Lillian Faderman: Are we may we have the next slide.

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Lillian Faderman: So this is a mouse Shamil.

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Lillian Faderman: Harvey top very proudly about his immigrant grandfather now from home, I think he learned a lot about the concept of tikkun olam.

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Lillian Faderman: And non discuss the federal that marcia was from he'd been a dairy man kind of like a table or milk in shallow millenniums fiddler on the roof.

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Lillian Faderman: He came to America and His story was, I think, very typical of the immigrant American success story, he had married in the shtetl in 1889.

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Lillian Faderman: A very quickly had five children with his wife, when the youngest who happened to be harvey's father was six months old.

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Lillian Faderman: masha decided that he would go to America and he would make his fortune he had a stepbrother in Kansas city Kansas, and he left his wife and kids behind which very often.

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Lillian Faderman: happened because he couldn't afford to bring them to once he got to Kansas, he he had had vague notions about starting a dairy farm.

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Lillian Faderman: He discovered he couldn't buy land, because it was too expensive, so he went to work in his stepbrothers dry goods store.

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Lillian Faderman: He just hated Kansas city hated the stockyards that were close by his wages were so small that it couldn't send for his family.

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Lillian Faderman: And so after three years, he went to New York City he had a distant relative on long island.

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Lillian Faderman: He went to the relatives home originally and then he bought a peddlers pap he started pedaling door to door soon he changed his name to Morris milk.

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Lillian Faderman: He bought a little store he sent for the family and eventually he opened the first department store on wood mere long island, which is where Harvey was born.

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Lillian Faderman: He invested in real estate he became quite wealthy I think if he had returned to yano skiffs they would have thought that he was a.

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Lillian Faderman: Noble man he looked very different, as you can see in this picture from the way he looked when he first arrived.

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Lillian Faderman: He became a philanthropist he started the first synagogue on wood mere long island, he was very generous to Jewish causes, he was also an activist.

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Lillian Faderman: I discovered so many stories that really reminded me of the sort of thing that Harvey might do, for instance, there was an exclusive country club.

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Lillian Faderman: near would more with me or it was called the rockaway hunt club and typical of those days it wouldn't allow Jews to join and so he helped start.

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Lillian Faderman: The would mirror country club which was a Jewish country club, but it was open to everyone, he was a man who did well and who did good, and I think he became harvey's main role model can we have the next slide please.

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Lillian Faderman: So the person in the middle is mini harvey's mother, this was taken knott's berry farm I believed in Los Angeles, the two statues on either side or.

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Lillian Faderman: 40 niners images of the guys who came to mine gold in California, it was taken when many and her husband came to visit Harvey in San Francisco but they toured around California.

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Lillian Faderman: But what I think you could see in this picture if you had a real sense of humor kind of like Harvey I think he got his sense of humor from her.

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Lillian Faderman: And I think he also learned about the Colonel from his mother she died in 1962 she was just in her early 60s died of a heart attack because she had carried a 24 pound Turkey to a settlement house for thanksgiving dinner for the poor, may we have the next slide please sorry.

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Lillian Faderman: So this is bill milk harvey's father, with whom he had a very difficult relationship, but I, I think that Harvey had things to learn from him.

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Lillian Faderman: As well bill was not a philanthropist but he did have a sense of social justice, for instance in 1940 when he was about 10 years old.

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Lillian Faderman: The would mirror school district refused to hire a Jewish woman as a music teacher was a big topic of discussion at home and harvey's father who hadn't been very political.

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Lillian Faderman: Before he joined the Group who protested to the school board and made them reconsider and I think Harvey learn from that kind of thing how important it was to become an activist and Community matters.

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Lillian Faderman: So harvey's ethnic identity as a Jew was firm, even in his youth, but he never had very much religious identity.

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Lillian Faderman: His his beloved grandfather was actually the founder as i've mentioned before, of the local synagogue so of course he had to go to a hater and he had to.

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Lillian Faderman: Study for his bar mitzvah but his heart wasn't in it, and I think that was particularly after he realized that he was gay and he feared that he would be rejected.

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Lillian Faderman: By Judaism, if he were found out this was, after all, in the early 1940s and there was not a single synagogue in the country, just as there wasn't a single church in the country that express sympathy for gay people, and so I think he was very alienated from organized religion, at that point.

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Lillian Faderman: Yet when he went to college he went to the New York state college for teachers in Albany which is now suny Albany.

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Lillian Faderman: One of the first things he did, is he joined a Jewish fraternity he attended events like shabbat dinners at the campus hillel this was.

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Lillian Faderman: In 1947 48 he went to meetings of the intercollegiate Zionist federation of America, he was very excited about the founding of Israel.

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Lillian Faderman: And he proclaimed his Jewish identity every chance, he got and I heard from people that I interviewed and the research, I did just charming stories about that.

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Lillian Faderman: For instance, he went home on what used to be called Christmas break winter break and he visited his best buddy from their high school days, who was Catholic.

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Lillian Faderman: and his friends family was hanging outdoor Christmas lights and Harvey offered to help but lest anyone forget who he was he fashion the section of lights that he was given into a twinkling Star of David.

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Lillian Faderman: Also grew up very aware towards me get this anti semitism.

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Lillian Faderman: When he was nine, the war in Europe began 1939 he was old enough to understand the talk of his parents and their Jewish.

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Lillian Faderman: neighbors and he was particularly affected by the fall of the Warsaw ghetto in 1943 that was just six days before his bar mitzvah.

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Lillian Faderman: And he always claimed to remember that the adults in his family, said about the Jews battles.

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Lillian Faderman: Against the Nazi troops that surrounded the ghetto that when something that evil descends on the world, you have to fight, even when it's helpless.

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Lillian Faderman: And that I think mark TIM, and it helps to explain his will to fight for justice, even when it seemed that the odds of winning were terrible.

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Lillian Faderman: The Holocaust became a major metaphor in Harvey speeches, once he entered the political arena, he just kept returning to stories of the Jews and the Nazis.

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Lillian Faderman: Especially to exhort gay people to be vigilant and to be ready for battle, it became a trope that he used over and over again in his speeches, may we have the next slide please sorry.

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Lillian Faderman: So, for example in 1978 when he was fighting against California is proposition six, which was a absolutely terrible ballot initiative that would have prohibited.

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Lillian Faderman: gay people or anyone who said anything nice about gay people even from working in any capacity and the public schools Harvey led the fight against that proposition and he told me.

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Lillian Faderman: He told the audiences to him, he spoke things such as quote I cannot remain silent anymore, there was silence in Germany, because no one got up early enough to say what Hitler really was it was just this this constant awareness of.

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Lillian Faderman: The threat that had to be protested against couched in the terms of the Holocaust in another another of his speeches he said just as proposition six.

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Lillian Faderman: would prevent gay people from teaching in the public schools so 45 years ago that the German law prohibits us from teaching or holding any other civil service positions.

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Lillian Faderman: It wasn't just that he kept returning to that trope it was his oratorical style that was so Jewish to was reminiscent of the soapbox speakers on delancey street in the lower East side of the early.

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Lillian Faderman: 20th century and he was very aware of that style being the same kind of style during his first campaign he even wrote the letters s.

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Lillian Faderman: A P on a wooden box and he brought it with him to street corners, where he stood on top of it to speak about why he should be elected to the board of supervisors, may we have the next slide please sorry.

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Lillian Faderman: So this is Harvey in 1973 he was a hippie he also ran for a seat on the San Francisco board of supervisors at that time it was just a year.

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Lillian Faderman: After he came to San Francisco for from New York, from the beginning, he was just very aware of himself in his campaigns, as part of an ultra liberal.

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Lillian Faderman: Jewish tradition that fought for all of the oppressed, he was champion of gay people, but not only gay people he was also the champion of workers and women and.

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Lillian Faderman: Racial minorities in the disabled and senior citizens everyone who suffered discrimination.

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Lillian Faderman: He he often said very Riley Jews know we can't allow discrimination if for no other reason than we might be on that list someday.

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Lillian Faderman: He also always felt himself to be a double outsider not only as a gay person, but also as a Jew, and even when he was invited inside as he eventually was through his election to political office.

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Lillian Faderman: He never let go of his sympathies for the outsiders, and the oppressed from his very first campaign.

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Lillian Faderman: He promoted the liberal Jewish values that he'd learned from childhood, for instance, he was asked to fill out a questionnaire by a group that was preparing a voters pamphlet this was in 1973.

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Lillian Faderman: And he wrote about how the government wasted taxpayers money by hiring police to arrest people for victimless crimes such as homosexuality.

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Lillian Faderman: When the money or to go to expanding health care for the elderly and the poor, he said on that questionnaire, there should be an expanded operation bootstrap.

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Lillian Faderman: To help more minorities and young people go into business for themselves, he said that hard drug addicts should help instead of thrown into prison.

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Lillian Faderman: And an answer to a question about civil rights he wrote using the language of 1973 yes civil rights for all, especially gay especially black especially Mexican especially oriental.

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Lillian Faderman: He lost that race for supervisor the 1973 race because San Francisco just wasn't ready for an unknown politician.

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Lillian Faderman: With a New York accent who looked like Harvey milk did and 1973 with his hair in a ponytail and his mustache but he learned from that he was a very quick learner maybe have been next slide please Ari.

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Lillian Faderman: it's hard to believe this is the same guy two years later.

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Lillian Faderman: So he changed his style clearly His style was much more sophisticated, but his values were unchanged and this time he managed to get endorsement from.

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Lillian Faderman: Various organizations that were not gay organizations such as be longshoreman and organized Labor and we have the next slide please sorry.

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Lillian Faderman: So this is Harvey talking to belong foreman San Francisco Bay, you can see from their expression.

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Lillian Faderman: which was kind of quizzical that they don't know quite what to make a film but they're very interested and he.

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Lillian Faderman: He convinced them, and so they they endorsed him because he convinced them that he really was sympathetic to.

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Lillian Faderman: The problems of the working man that he really intended to fight for the problems the working man and he did his homework he knew what their problems were.

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Lillian Faderman: He got endorsements also from ecology groups like San Francisco tomorrow, which was the big ecology organization and San Francisco he got endorsements from black groups, and you know groups and Asian groups, and we have the next slide please already.

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Lillian Faderman: And he got endorsements from senior citizen groups, because he he told them and he meant it very sincerely, the taxpayers money should be spent on making sure that everyone had decent health care he was particularly interested.

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Lillian Faderman: As we are so many years later in the idea of dental care for the elderly, but that was a very novel position and the early 1970s.

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Lillian Faderman: He he lost that.

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Lillian Faderman: election, but he barely lost it there were six open seats and he came in seven out of a crowded field about 35 people ran for office.

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Lillian Faderman: In 1976 he ran again this time he ran for the California Assembly and he lost that too, he was a little naive about democratic politics, he didn't realize about the democratic machine and how.

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Lillian Faderman: The powerful democratic politicians had already endorsed art add now Sue was a wonderful liberal but.

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Lillian Faderman: Was not K, in any case he lost three elections, he lost 73 he lost 75 he lost 76 but he realized that each time he was getting more and more votes.

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Lillian Faderman: Finally, in 1977 San Francisco changed from city wide elections to district elections and so Harvey ran in the district that included the Castro, which was gay.

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Lillian Faderman: And haight ashbury which was still pretty hippie and no way Valley, which was fairly liberal he ran against 17 candidates and he got 30% of the vote by now, he was recognized as.

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Lillian Faderman: The leader of San francisco's gay community may we have the next slide please sorry.

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Lillian Faderman: So this is Harvey with mayor George moscone Harvey took office in January of 1978 one of the first things he did was he introduced a gay rights.

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Lillian Faderman: bill, and this is that the signing of the gay rights spill and you could see how happy Harvey is that it was finally signed.

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Lillian Faderman: 11 months later, both of these men were killed in November of 1978 Harvey and George moscone were both killed by Dan white a homophobic fellow supervisor.

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Lillian Faderman: So why, after so short a time in office and 43 years after his death does Harvey milk still matter I really have the next slide please sorry.

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Lillian Faderman: This is Harvey on the board of supervisors and the Chamber, you can see from the stack of papers they're all of the homework that the Board of Supervisors had to do.

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Lillian Faderman: I interviewed a couple of people who are on the board with him and they told me that he was always the best prepare and he always did his homework.

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Lillian Faderman: Here, he seems to be saying look at all the stuff I have to do, but he did it faithfully he he studied every issue and was very active on the board.

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Lillian Faderman: I think he did a lot in those 11 months that can be characterized as an attempt to repair the world.

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Lillian Faderman: on a local level, he fought for rent control because he was concerned for the poor, and particularly the elderly.

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Lillian Faderman: He fought against the expansion of San francisco's airport, because he believed that a bigger airport would mean more traffic and more pollution.

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Lillian Faderman: And more noise and it's so ironic that a couple of years ago a terminal at the San Francisco airport was named after him it's the Harvey milk terminals so.

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Lillian Faderman: would be interesting to know what he would make of that but, in any case he he also for fight for issues that resonated far beyond San Francisco.

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Lillian Faderman: For example, he fought for the US State Department to close it set a South African consulate in San Francisco to protest against apartheid.

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Lillian Faderman: And he convinced the Board of Supervisors that San Francisco should stop investing in corporations and banks that did business with South Africa, and that was the.

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Lillian Faderman: Start he was really the leader in this in this thinking, it was the start of municipal movements all over the country to do the same thing by before apartheid ended 112 cities and countries had followed suit.

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Lillian Faderman: And, of course, he did a lot that was especially important to the gay community he got the country's most comprehensive gay rights bill passed at a time when other cities were repealing they are gay rights bills, this was the time when and nita Brian.

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Lillian Faderman: got Miami dade nita Brian some of you may remember, was a very popular singer of the orange juice lady she did Florida orange juice commercials.

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Lillian Faderman: And she was also a religious fundamentalist Miami dade county in Florida had just passed a gay rights ordinance she got the voters to overturn that odd ordinance she.

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Lillian Faderman: helped get voters over to overturn gay rights ordinances in St Paul Minnesota and wichita Kansas and eugene Oregon.

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Lillian Faderman: And at that time Harvey managed to pass the strongest gay rights ordinance of any city in America is bill protected the people and housing and employment and public accommodations.

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Lillian Faderman: And it had teeth in it gave gay people the right to sue if their rights were violated and it became the model for effective gay rights spills all over the country.

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Lillian Faderman: He also did other things that were vital for the progress of the gay community, for example, he believed that gay adults had to take moral responsibility.

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Lillian Faderman: For gay youth that was an absolutely revolutionary idea in the 1970s, the early.

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Lillian Faderman: Homer file organizations were terrified of gay youth they had policies like mashing society.

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Lillian Faderman: And the daughters of beliefs, they had policies that said that nobody who was under 21 could join.

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Lillian Faderman: And that was because they they feared, of being accused of the stereotype the horrible stereotype that homosexuals molest.

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Lillian Faderman: Children, but Harvey thought that gay people had to rise above that fear for something more important, he was the first elected.

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Lillian Faderman: politician to publicly declare his determination to help young gay people these days it's it's widely understood that, as a community, of course, we need to be concerned about the welfare.

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Lillian Faderman: of young LGBT Q people, of course, we have to make sure that they are not dragged down by bullying.

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Lillian Faderman: Nowadays, their anti bullying campaigns such as it gets better there are programs focused on gay youth and every LGBT Q Center in the country.

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Lillian Faderman: But that wasn't the case in the 1970s, I think it was harvey's pioneering conviction that gay adults had a responsibility for gay youth had to work for their causes and serve as their role models that really got the ball rolling, and the ideas, no longer debatable.

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Lillian Faderman: So last year of harvey's life was glorious because he was just such a force on the San Francisco board of supervisors.

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Lillian Faderman: He was the biggest game name in America, but that last year was also very difficult in in just terrible ways he had one terrific victory after another, and he also had one devastating disaster after another.

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Lillian Faderman: For instance, he was flat broke he put a lot of money into his for campaigns, he devoted all of his time and energy to being on the board of supervisors and the shop that he ran with his partner Scott Smith.

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Lillian Faderman: went broke they went out of business, the supervisor job paid a pittance because of that time it was the very romantic idea of the government of San Francisco that.

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Lillian Faderman: People on the Board of Supervisors should be citizens and not career politicians and so he got 90 $600 a year.

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Lillian Faderman: that's the equivalent in today's money of $37,000 and, of course, he couldn't live on that and so he had to borrow money constantly from.

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Lillian Faderman: Friends just settle his bills and pay the rent and buy groceries and then the worst thing that happened, an absolute horror was that in August of 1978 the man that he lived with jack lira committed suicide.

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Lillian Faderman: Maybe it was the terrible things that happened that drove Harvey astonishingly, I think, to the synagogue for the high holidays that October of 1978 just one month before he was assassinated.

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Lillian Faderman: He went to shut ours have which was San francisco's case synagogue, and this was perhaps the first time that he gone to high holiday services senses boyhood the rabbi who officiated for those holidays, that I had the opportunity to interview.

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Lillian Faderman: said that after the service Harvey went up to him to say how good it felt to finally quote be home in his jewishness.

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Lillian Faderman: But i'm going to end my presentation by saying that, in terms of what Harvey stood for I think he never really stopped being quote home in his jewishness and i'll stop here.

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Lillian Faderman: i'm sorry I couldn't hear you better.

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Eric Marcus: Now I haven't said anything, yet I.

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Was.

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Eric Marcus: stumbling around trying to move the chat box and Q amp a box, so I could actually read them so William first congratulations on this book.

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Eric Marcus: The reviews have been spectacular, which is, as we know, not always the case with a book, so I imagine that's been gratifying just to those of you who are listening, right now, if you'd like to ask a question, please put it in the chat box i'm sorry in the Q amp a box.

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Eric Marcus: At and I will get to them at in about 10 minutes, so please do put your questions in the Q amp a box so Lillian did you have any idea that Harvey was so Jewish.

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Lillian Faderman: I didn't, in fact, when I first heard of Harvey milk, of course, I heard of him when he was elected to the board of supervisors, he got national attention is being the the first out gay man to win political office there were two lesbians, who had one political office in 1974 but.

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Lillian Faderman: He was the first game man I didn't realize, he was Jewish.

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Lillian Faderman: Although his his speaking style, as I said earlier, was really a soapbox orator style from delancey street so I should have realized.

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Lillian Faderman: It was a such a revelation though to to learn how Jewish he was from the people who knew him that I had the privilege of interviewing I.

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Eric Marcus: was surprised in when I reviewed the list of people I included in my book, making history, the original position and making history.

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Eric Marcus: I hadn't been tracking the number of Jews in my book, but it was fully a third of the activists were Jewish and I wonder if you have thoughts about that that whether whether.

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Jewish.

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Lillian Faderman: yeah and I noticed that, too, when I became active in the 1970s.

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Lillian Faderman: In the movement and I, I think it was because.

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Lillian Faderman: Like Harvey I think there, there was this feeling among gay Jews, that we had to be activists, we had to make things better, we had to be out there, yes, I noticed that so many of the people that I admired, who were active in the beginning of the gay movement where were Jews.

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Eric Marcus: And we also have the shadow of the Holocaust, we know we know how bad, it can be yes, yes and.

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Lillian Faderman: Harvey, of course, was, as I said, very aware of that.

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Eric Marcus: So with that had already been a Harvey milk book by Randy shells, there was a Harvey milk movie so when.

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Eric Marcus: i'm sorry.

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Lillian Faderman: It was a wonderful movie I think Sean penn was absolutely Harvey milk that buddy did a terrific job.

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Eric Marcus: I would you be.

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Eric Marcus: interested in doing another one.

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Lillian Faderman: i'm sorry you froze for a minute Eric would you repeat that.

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Eric Marcus: Yes, of course, it's I live on my 20th street and Chelsea and we joke, that the squirrels chew through the wires but they really do so it's a it's New York City in the 19th century, my question was.

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Eric Marcus: Given that there was already a movie and a book about Harvey milk when the published came to you and said we'd like you to do a book why what interested you.

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Lillian Faderman: I think it was because I love Randy Schultz book it's terrific the Mayor of Castro street but Randy wasn't very interested in harvey's jewishness and.

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Lillian Faderman: That was very interesting to to me, which I first learned about I I guess first studied extensively.

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Lillian Faderman: When I was working on on the gay revolution, although I didn't discuss it extensively and the gay revolution, so I thought that, yes, that that would make a terrific subject tell harvey's jewishness influenced his his gay activism.

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Lillian Faderman: So.

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Eric Marcus: You know the questions are coming in fast and furiously so rather than me ask you more questions to some of these cover things that i'd like to ask i'm going to turn to the list of questions.

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Eric Marcus: So.

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Eric Marcus: uh huh this comes from Carol did anti semitism figure at all in the murder of Harvey milk.

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Lillian Faderman: I don't think so, I think that Dan white was a very disturbed young man, he was only 31 years old, he was certainly very conservative but.

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Lillian Faderman: I haven't been able to find any evidence that he was particularly anti Semitic I think it was his homophobia and his upset that he had quit the board of supervisors and then.

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Lillian Faderman: could not get his job back mayor moscone said you quit and I can't let you come back and it was Harvey who encouraged mayor moscone to not reverse Dan white's resignation, and I think I think it was.

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Lillian Faderman: I think what was primarily behind Dan white's decision that he was going to kill the mayor and kill Harvey.

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Lillian Faderman: was first of all, is not being able to get his job back, but secondly, he kept saying to his constituents that San Francisco was going to hell, and it was primarily because of the.

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Lillian Faderman: gay activists in San Francisco and the gay gay people all over San Francisco and of course Harvey was in the forefront of that and mayor moscone was very sympathetic to to gay people, and I think that was what was.

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Lillian Faderman: Dan white's motivation, rather than anti semitism.

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Eric Marcus: I forgotten how young Dan white was.

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Lillian Faderman: Yes, he was the youngest person to ever be elected to the board of supervisors and he was absolutely not ready for the job he had been a fireman and he'd been a policeman he.

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Lillian Faderman: never went to college he had very conservative notions and.

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Lillian Faderman: I think he felt that he was out of his element on the Board of Supervisors came unprepared and was a very uncomfortable situation for him.

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Eric Marcus: I thought of Harvey milk is an older person when I first came to know who he was in the 70s, and now I think he was so young, when he.

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Eric Marcus: did all of this 40.

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Lillian Faderman: yeah 48 when he was killed.

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Eric Marcus: um, so this is a question for you do, you have anything to say about Harvey milk service in the navy this comes from, Harold says.

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Lillian Faderman: I do.

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Lillian Faderman: Something very disturbing for me.

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Lillian Faderman: I did a lot of research in there a wonderful archives at the San Francisco public library of Harvey milk's papers are there.

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Lillian Faderman: I went through his papers very carefully and among his papers was an Honorable discharge from the navy.

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Lillian Faderman: And Harvey had said very often that he got a dishonorable discharge that he was booted out of the.

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Lillian Faderman: navy, because he was a homosexual he served four years in the navy it made sense to me that, of course, he would get an.

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Lillian Faderman: Honorable discharge, and he said that he was booted out of the navy as a gay activist, because he was sympathetic to so many people who were booted out of the navy, simply because he was gay.

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Lillian Faderman: I learned subsequently that that Honorable discharge was forged he was indeed booted out of the navy.

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Lillian Faderman: That was so fascinating to me and the archivist this one wonderful archivist at the San Francisco public library TIM Wilson.

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Lillian Faderman: Who led me to terrific things in the Harvey milk collection he had no idea that that was a forged Honorable discharge, any more than.

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Lillian Faderman: I did so, you know it tells such an interesting story about Harvey that that he was so worried that it would ruin his career chances that, of course, if he had the opportunity to get this forge piece of paper, he would and he he did.

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Eric Marcus: Do you have any idea how he did or where it came.

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Lillian Faderman: From no idea how.

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Lillian Faderman: And I have since scrutinized that piece of paper, it looks like the real thing to me, but he.

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Lillian Faderman: Also, since looked at.

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Lillian Faderman: The.

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Lillian Faderman: papers that show that he was under investigation and he bought a less than Honorable discharge it's called it wasn't a dishonorable discharge, but it was a less than Honorable discharge.

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Eric Marcus: To that mean that he was then not entitled to any of the GI benefits.

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Lillian Faderman: Yes, it did mean that and he was very proud of his service he had a navy belt buckle that he constantly war, even to the date of his assassination there's a.

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Lillian Faderman: gay an LGBT Q Museum in San Francisco and for a while they had in may still have the suit that Harvey war, when he was assassinated, including that belt buckle that.

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Lillian Faderman: navy belt buckle very proud of.

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Eric Marcus: Well, he was certainly aware of, of how people's lives were ruined.

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Eric Marcus: By being out of the military.

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Lillian Faderman: Yes, and he talked about it a lot.

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Eric Marcus: of how did his parents react his parents and wouldn't be here and i'm a place i'm familiar with, since I grew up in Queens.

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Eric Marcus: I can tell you how they grew up in kew gardens how they reacted and your gardens, how did his parents and wouldn't be react to him coming out to the ever did they ever know who's gay.

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Lillian Faderman: No, no, his mother died in 1962 he was very closeted in 1962 for a while his lover was Craig rodwell who became a major figure.

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Lillian Faderman: In gay activism, he was there at the stonewall riots Harvey actually dropped Craig at least partly because Craig was such an activist Craig had.

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Lillian Faderman: At one point, he was trying to organize a meeting in the early 1960s of gay people he went around Greenwich village and wherever he saw on mailboxes.

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Lillian Faderman: Two names of the same sex he stuffed a circular for the meeting into the mailbox and he told Harvey about it and Harvey was horrified he said.

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Lillian Faderman: you're going to upset them so much there'll be so worried now how can you do something like that so Harvey was not an activist in 1962 he was very.

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Lillian Faderman: closeted his mother died in 1962 never really knowing that Harvey was gay, although she might have suspected.

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Lillian Faderman: He had a very troubled relationship with his father never told his father that he was gay his father lived until 1974 and Harvey had been running for political office by then.

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Lillian Faderman: So his father could have found out through the newspapers that.

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Lillian Faderman: Harvey was a gay man running for political office, except that his father was blind by the and didn't read newspapers so his father never knew about it.

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Lillian Faderman: And I think that Harvey was always troubled that he didn't come out to his parents, I think it made for.

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Lillian Faderman: A very difficult relationship that he had to be dishonest, particularly with his father, and I think it was because of that that.

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Lillian Faderman: One of his major messages to the gay community was that you have to come out, you have to come out to everyone, he was one of the first.

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Lillian Faderman: politic the first politician gay politician to say that that it's important that you come out to your parents you come out to your friends, you can add to your employer's.

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Lillian Faderman: it's, the only way gay people will make political progress it's, the only way we'll win our rights he wasn't the first gay person to say at the.

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Lillian Faderman: gay Liberation Front headed magazines that they started in 1969 called come out, but he was the first politician to say that.

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Lillian Faderman: He was the first person to spread that message to me a huge segment of the public.

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Eric Marcus: it's so striking to me that that he didn't come out because I wasn't aware of that, because he was so he was so public in saying come out and visibility was so key, I can only imagine how painful it was for him.

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Lillian Faderman: It was painful yes and I when his father died, he told someone that I interviewed.

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Lillian Faderman: Very regretfully, that he couldn't mourn because they never had a relationship, and the reason they didn't have a relationship was that his father didn't know who he was and he felt that he couldn't tell his father who he was so he learned from that, I think.

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Eric Marcus: There are so many surprising things that you came across that i'm a little reluctant to ask you what was most surprising, but among the many things that you discovered what were some of the things that surprised you Besides the fact he was so jute so culturally Jewish.

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Lillian Faderman: Yes, that that was the most interesting thing to me, is, I wrote the book for.

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Lillian Faderman: Yale and the people that I interviewed it told me wonderful stories about his jewishness just one other story that I tell in the book that I absolutely love.

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Lillian Faderman: Once he was elected to office in the beginning, he had an open door policy and his buddies from the Castro would just drop by and he realized he couldn't get any work done.

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Lillian Faderman: But he also had another constituent a little old Jewish lady by the name of henrietta abrams who just loved him, and she would come.

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Lillian Faderman: visit him regularly every week, she would take a couple of buses bringing a box of cookies for his sweet tooth it was an cronenberg his assist harpies assistant to told me the story, so they would sit in his office and munched cup cookies and talk unified and he loved that he just loved.

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Lillian Faderman: Your phrases and the Yiddish past.

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Lillian Faderman: So I love stories like that, but there were other stories that that surprised me he he was very human in his frailties and I didn't want to hide that.

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Lillian Faderman: I wanted to present him warts and all and he had a lot of boards and I loved him I ended up loving him after I learned about those words to and I.

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Lillian Faderman: I hope my readers end up loving him as well, even though he had these words I think he wasn't he was wonderful to humanity, I think, in personal relationships, he.

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Lillian Faderman: wasn't always wonderful, just like every human being on earth, I think he he was not a perfect guy and I don't think it's the job of the biographer to hide that stuff, and so I I never hide it, although I think he was an admirable figure and a lovable figure he he he had faults.

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Eric Marcus: Roberta has asked if you ever met Harvey.

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Lillian Faderman: No, I didn't to migrate print yeah yeah.

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Eric Marcus: um can you speak about his relationship and this comes from Wendy can you speak about his relationship with and the importance of the gay women's community and his campaigns for office and against.

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Lillian Faderman: prompts yes.

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Lillian Faderman: that's an excellent question that I address at great length.

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Lillian Faderman: There was a huge lesbian feminist movement in the 1970s, particularly in San Francisco but in big cities all over the country, and they were opposed to Harvey in the beginning, at one point he started.

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Lillian Faderman: This campaign to to buy gay he wanted people to frequent gay shops, he was visited by very left wing.

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Lillian Faderman: lesbian feminist who said he was a damn capitalist and he was just supporting capitalism and he held his own talking about how important it was to support.

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Lillian Faderman: gay businesses, but he also realized that he had to address the lesbian community and he did something very clever he he goddesses assistant a wonderful woman who was a lesbian at that time and cronenberg.

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Lillian Faderman: Who was very popular in the lesbian community and she was able to convincingly.

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Lillian Faderman: tell other lesbians in San Francisco why Harvey milk was pro lesbian was in favor of their cause would not neglect them when he was when he was.

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Lillian Faderman: elected to public office and then he did another very good thing, I think he was invited to debate with the terrible state Senator john briggs who had sponsored that initiative that I referred to earlier, that would have outlawed.

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Lillian Faderman: Homosexuals or anyone who said anything nice about gay people from working in the public schools.

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Lillian Faderman: Harvey agreed to debate him on TV and cronenberg said, I think you need to get a lesbian to debate.

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Lillian Faderman: on your side is your partner, and he invited Sally gearhart, who was a wonderful woman who died recently very eloquent lesbian and that really charmed the lesbian community, they would campaign together and Sally told me I interviewed her before she died she told me that.

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Lillian Faderman: whenever they would be on the campaign trail together at the end of their talk Harvey would hold up her arm and say your next San Francisco supervisor, that is, he would help.

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Lillian Faderman: Her he promised to win a seat on the San Francisco board of supervisors, so he made his peace with lesbians and I think it was genuine I think he.

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Lillian Faderman: He really did sympathize with the problems that lesbians had and San Francisco and everywhere, and I think it was an cronenberg who.

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Lillian Faderman: helped him understand the problems and so he That was the time when the ERA the equal rights amendment.

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Lillian Faderman: was almost at the verge of passing and and cronenberg educated him about the equal rights amendment and, in so many of his speeches he talked about the importance of supporting the ERA the equal rights amendment.

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Eric Marcus: I have a couple of more questions for you, before I turn this back over to Ari, although of course I could ask you it's such a treat to have this conversation with you like I.

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Eric Marcus: can do this for all afternoon here in New York City, I know it's morning, where you are.

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Eric Marcus: A question from Joanne says thanks for for your wonderful presentation and this new angle of Jewish historical appreciation for life of Harvey milk.

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Eric Marcus: knowing your extensive expertise and LGBT Q literature and history, I wonder if you are familiar with Leslie newman's 1988 collection of short stories a letter to Harvey milk.

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Lillian Faderman: I am and Leslie is a friend and i'm I admire her work very much for those of you who don't know she's the author of heather has to mommy us.

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Lillian Faderman: which was actually read into the Congressional record, because the right wing thought it was so shocking that little kids would be taught that there were some families where there were two mothers, that is, lesbian families with children, but yes, I admire leslie's work very much.

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Eric Marcus: Looking back over your long life and the changes that you have seen and Harvey comes early in we're in the middle of your life, I wonder what your thoughts are reflecting back on the changes you've seen.

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Lillian Faderman: Over these many decades, you know I came out into the lesbian community in the 1950s and at that time we were all criminals to the law and.

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Lillian Faderman: crazies to the psychiatric profession and sinners to synagogues and churches and subversives at that time to the federal government, it was thought that if we had important jobs, we would somehow leak government secrets to the Soviets.

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Lillian Faderman: I think at that time, if anyone had told me that I would see the day when we could get married when we could serve openly in the military.

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Lillian Faderman: When there were major movies and major TV programs about us when to be a homophobe was almost as disgusting as to be a racist If anyone had told me that I think I would have thought in the 1950s, that they were smoking too much pot.

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Lillian Faderman: simply could not have believed that that things would become so much better than they had been in the 50s and the 60s and the 70s, of course, the 80s, was a period of tragedy for.

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Lillian Faderman: The progress has been remarkably.

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Eric Marcus: it's extraordinary I feel now at this age, like some of the people I interviewed felt who had been so who'd been the movement in the early 50s that they just they couldn't even adjust things have moved so quickly that they felt like dinosaurs.

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Lillian Faderman: Absolutely, and I have to say to that, I think, in some ways Harvey was partially responsible for it by insisting that we had to come out that has made.

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Lillian Faderman: All the difference that that we have come out and now now most of America knows that they know someone gay or lesbian or gay or bi or trans or queer whatever.

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Lillian Faderman: It didn't used to be the case, it used to be that most of America thought that we were all child molesters lurking in the shadows ready to jump on some 14 year old kid and.

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Lillian Faderman: Harvey is right by saying they have to know that we're your sons and daughters and brothers and sisters and co workers and neighbors and it's made all the difference yeah.

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Eric Marcus: i'm gonna turn this back to our either is still some questions I left that I didn't get to ask you, but we've run out of time, so all right back to you and thank you.

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Lillian Faderman: So much Thank you so much here it's so good to see you and.

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Ari Goldstein: It really is our privilege to listen to you both to see your presentation Lillian in your enriching conversation, thank you both so much.

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Lillian Faderman: Thank you.

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Ari Goldstein: For, thank you to our audience for joining us, especially during LGBT Q history month and to our wonderful partners at CBS T Robbie James her opening comments.

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Ari Goldstein: You can order lillian's book at the link in the zoom chat you can also explore more about the museum and support our work, but the link in the zoom chat.

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Ari Goldstein: mentioned that Eric has done a couple of great programs with us, including a fascinating interview with Robert beachy about gay life and y mar Germany in 2019 so we'll send everyone.

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Ari Goldstein: A follow up email tomorrow that includes several of these links and, most importantly, the recording of today's program rubber James any closing comments.

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Rabbi Marisa Elana James: I was right, I definitely learned a lot more, and thank you Eric and thank you Lillian.

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Rabbi Marisa Elana James: I it's amazing the richness of one life and a very complex life, as you say, and I hope that we all can continue.

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Rabbi Marisa Elana James: Understanding who some of our ancestors are who may not be included in the canon of who we have been taught our ancestors, but who absolutely are the people on whose shoulders, we stand today, thank you.

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Ari Goldstein: Thank you take care, everyone.